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Unknown Single

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Doug Kimball
Senior Member
Username: doug11k

Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A friend recently picked up this small single and we are looking to identify it. 10" diameter flywheel, 2-bolt flanged intake & exhaust openings, 4-bolt removable head. The carb is a Schebler I'm not familiar with. Two guesses so far are Essex & Knox. The Essexes I've seen have had 4-bolt flanges. Engine castings don't look heavy enough to be a Knox. Engine acquired at Dublin, NH show.

port side
stbd side
Unknown Model Schebler Carb
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Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher

Post Number: 256
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2008 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a pretty good handle on Knoxs back to 1903. I can't tell you much about 1900 to 1903 yet. However, except for the 4 studs holding the head on, there is very little in common between this engine and any Knox I am aware of. The Schebler carburetor seems to be off a motorcycle of the period.
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1809
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 03:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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This small Motor looks like the Fairfield Motor Companies Bull Pup!

The shape of the crankcase etc-- the 2 bolt exhaust flange does not match-- in late 1908 or early 09 the mfgring of these engines was taken over by the Consolidated C&S Co. but I have not seen a photo of the bull pup, they continued making the Fairfield and Park city Auto Marine engines but they had a different base design ??

1906

Fbp06

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Doug Kimball
Senior Member
Username: doug11k

Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
It does looks pretty close. I contacted the owner & he will check bore & stroke.
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Scott R Barrow
New member
Username: roddy_mcmain

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 10:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you view page one of the photos from Mystic in 2002, the black engine in the second photo is my old Fairfield Bullpup that I got from Ernie.
it had a Lunk. mixer on it.
Scott Barrow
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1810
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, September 15, 2008 - 11:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*Can't find that thread--- whats the link to those photos ?
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Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher

Post Number: 260
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 12:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The photo is poor because it is a screen capture from a 1926 Schebler motorcycle repair manual presently for sale on eBay (eBay number is 350098676129). The carburetor in the upper left of the photo is quite similar to the one on this unknown.

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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1811
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 12:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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I thought for a long time that these Model H carbs were strictly motorcycle carbs but I have seen a few Marine eng catalogs that offered the H as an upgrade- some racing engs used them exclusively ! They were expensive compared to others !

sh1
sh2}

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Doug Kimball
Senior Member
Username: doug11k

Post Number: 60
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 09:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/shows/mystic_2002/

Scott Barrow's Fairfield Bull Pup on right
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1812
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 09:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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would like to see better photos of this engine, it may be a small Fairfield and not a Bull PuP ?

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Doug Kimball
Senior Member
Username: doug11k

Post Number: 61
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie must be travelling. Here is another photo from his website before Scott got it. Ernie had following caption: ?? I am told this is a "BULL PUP" made by the Fairfield Motor Co. Fairfield or Bridgeport CT
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1813
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2008 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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The White engine above isn't a Bull Pup !


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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 869
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correct not like the ad. However I finally did see some documentation on it and it is a version of Bull Pup from Farifield. I think Norm Mullins owns it now.
And yes I am travelling again.....
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1814
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Faifield one of the very old marine engine makers, ad below says established 1896.So far it looks like they mfgd 3 different marine engines all with some similar design-- Bull Pup---- Fairfield-----Park city Auto Marine engines.In 1909 The Consolidated Carpet and Sewing Machine Corporation took over the mfgr of these engs and may have made some minor design changes ?
The few Bull pup ads that I have seen all had the rounded crankcase mount flange area, early ones had make and break ignition later ones lever timer front and water/pump rear .
The above white engine is -I believe- an early Fairfield with a different lower crankcase casting design and extended square angled engine mounts, like the engine on right side of the ad above ? I believe that these engines were also used on railroad carts ?
Difficult sorting some of this out reminding myself that these engines were made well over 100 yrs ago ??

1904

Bp04


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Doug Kimball
Senior Member
Username: doug11k

Post Number: 62
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The red engine above has 3" bore & 2- 3/4" stroke, 10" diameter flywheel.. Maybe a 2 hp as listed in 1906 ad Richard posted?
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1815
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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This ad sticks a wrench in the spokes ! 1909 consolidated ad says Bull Pup and shows the base and mounting design previously exclusive to the Fairfield engs, also now has a make and break ignition and eccentric driven water/pump on output shaft -- this is what Ernie said that there were many different versions of Bull pups !
With these old engs and Companies that made them sometimes the more you learn the less you know !!


1909

BP09con

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Searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher

Post Number: 261
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2008 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And some of these 'manufacturers' and 'builders' bought castings from whatever foundry was offering the best prices, did the machine work on the rough castings, added off the shelf grease and oil cups, etc., and sent the finished engine out the door with a fine new tag. And, 100 years later, we are left wondering who actually made what.
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miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 346
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Friday, September 19, 2008 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

too bad we don't have DNA for cast iron
It sure would be useful to help figure this out
miro

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