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Engine ID

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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 293
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Monday, October 15, 2007 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keith Dupuy picked up this engine today, it's a nice complete early engine, was stuck but broke loose and turns half a round. The most distinguishing feature is the timer shaft running through the water pump, also means the water is being introduced to the top of the cylinder. No tag, any ideas?
35
45
55
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 736
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 08:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IT's a Waterman
Dick Day has one.
They run real nice
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keith
Senior Member
Username: keith

Post Number: 185
Registered: 02-2002


Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks like it has a $200 Crown Rod Oiler on it
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 737
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 06:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are pics of Dick Days Engine



Note the added counter balance on the flywheel. I didn't get a pic of the tag. It is about 1 inch round on the back of the cylinder.
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 294
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Ernie, looks like it. Different timer and Keith's has a bushing on the spark plug. Do you think the bushing was to allow a boring bar to pass through for cylinder machining?
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 295
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The oiler looked strange to me Keith, I'm not familiar with rod oilers but it would make sense. The sloshing action of the rod would allow it to work.
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 738
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Tuesday, October 16, 2007 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JB,
I don't remember, however I think Dicks has a bushing on the plug too. Makes sense to support the boring bar. I also seem to remember the timer cover on Dicks says Waterman on it as well.
Dick?
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1551
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 10:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
Keith, I think that you have found a rare classic old marine engine here and it seems in good original condition !

Thanks Ernie for the I.D. and photos of Dicks engine !

When J.B. posted the photos above I knew I had seen this engine but didn't have a name for it. Around the turn of the century E.W. Roberts was probably the most prolific designer and writer about the two cycle marine engine, he claims to have designed well over 100 different engines before establishing his own mfging Co. in 1906. I have always wondered where are all of these engines and what did they look like, and who mfgd them ? I believe that this Waterman is one of those !

Roberts designed engines of this time had the water/pump mounted near the top front of the cyl with the timer shaft going through it, the cylinder, cylinder flange, upper crank housing appear to be very similar casting. this 1907 photo ad with exceptions of lower crankcase, and
intake and ex manifolds look similar ?

r08

r208

Cameron Waterman designed his Porto out board and mfgd it in 1906 his early ads said inboard engs were also available but I have not found a photo ad or catalog yet showing these engs or any reference to who may have actually Cast or mfgd them. Later inboards sold by Waterman were the much more well known copper jacketed two cycle like the Arrow or dispro etc ??

Nice Find !!!

*
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 740
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The timer water pump is the givaway to a lot of EW Roberts designes.
Bruce Stewart Imparial from Prince Edward Island, NS
Mullins
Roberts
And at least one more that I can't seem to remember right now.
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 741
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the tag from Dick's Engine
The tag is 1-9/16” diameter.
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 298
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Sunday, October 21, 2007 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info Richard & Ernie. Keith had his engine at a local show today, cranked it off for the first time. It ran well, starts and reverses easily, idles slow. A look at the pictures and you see the disadvantage of the front water pump, you can't hold the flywheel to pull it through compression. Dick Days motor seems to have more room Ernie, do you think the replacement gear had a thicker hub?
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 742
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2007 - 11:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JB,
This engine was so scewed up as far as the timer goes I have no idea what might have been. The timer gears are something that Dick got from George King. There was nothing there to start with. Going by the water pump eccretic strap I moved the flywheel closer to the engine. I had to bend it to line up properly.
I do remember the crank gear had a long hub on it. I also had to cut the center out of it to get it close enough to the engine to have proper mesh with the timer gear.
On Keiths engine is the eccretic part of the gear or the flywheel? Dicks engine is part of the flyweel.
Hope this helps
E
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1573
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Another log on the fire!

When you think you have some of this Old Marine Engine history figured out it is probably an Illusion -- most of the time a disillusionment!!

Here's a 1908 Waterman ad That shows a model X improved KOWALSKY engine and that it was formerly made at Verona, Pennsylvania ?? Did Waterman buy out Kowalsky ??

Look at the casting on this twin it sure looks like the above engs.

WK08

Kowalsky was one of those turn of the century brilliant inventors who among other things designed several different marine engs by this 1908 date ??? Is this his design or E.W. Roberts ??

*
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 761
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Wednesday, November 14, 2007 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
The pic above is definatly a Roberts design. Kowalsky engines didn't look anything like a Roberts design. So I wonder if Roberts was designing or allowed the use of his designs by Kowalsky before the purchase by Waterman???
Take a look here for some Kowalsky pics
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1574
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Ernie

Thats the way it looks, still looking into who actually made these engines ??

*
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 762
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
I think the key is who did E.W. Roberts work for. HeHe maybe both... Also I am quite sure Waterman was around with Roberts style engines before they had the official dealing with Kowalsky. Maybe chase it from that angle???
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bgoss
New member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 07:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info, I think that helps to identify one of ours. Other than the pouring plugs being in different locations on the cylinder, everything else seems to match the Waterman's pictured above.

Thanks again
watermanwaterman2
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philg
Member
Username: philg

Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2008 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Guys, was surfing this site and followed a lot of links to Waterman engines and Robertson designs. I have a small engine that seems to be very similar to the Waterman, only it has a split crank case. It did come with a Breezee carb and looks very similar to the Waterman outboard that converts to a stationary in Wendels BYB, I think Waterman used the Breezee around 1910? My pics show a second breezee with a check valve but no provision for an oiler. On the top of the cylinder it looks like something has been removed and a plate welded in, any ideas on what's missing? The back of the engine there is a machined area that could possibly hold a water pump(missing). 2 owners previous to me had the engine running to pump water to his garden from a ditch, using a belt drive to a gear pump and bled off water from it to cool the engine. unknown engine
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 357
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 09:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it possible that the cylinder was rotated? That could be a water pump mount-inlet if it were in the front. Look through the exhaust with the piston down and see if the deflector on the piston is in front of the transfer port on the opposite side of the exhaust. If the cylinder was out of rotation, the deflector and transfer port would be in the front of the engine as in the picture above yours.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1684
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2008 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*

I have been trying to I.D. this one by the vertically split crankcase but no matches yet ?

This one will stay in the Unknown engine file for now !

*
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philg
Member
Username: philg

Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Guys, with JB's suggestion that the cylinder may have been rotated, I pulled the jug off- and what a surprise! Someone has been fiddling in here already, the cylinder can not be rotated because the transfer point needs to line up on the base, the bolt holes are 3" one way by 3.25" the other so as to not mix them up. If it was rotated a full 180 degrees the carb would interfere with the flywheel and the transfer port would not connect properly with the base. The big surprise was that the baffle has been sawed off and a new one added, but it is now positioned just inside the exhaust port. I have attempted pictures to show you what I mean. I believe the piston has been changed because the original baffle would not work even if turned around. I'm interested on anyones take on what this engine is or why these changed were made?modifications
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john_archibald
Senior Member
Username: john_archibald

Post Number: 59
Registered: 08-2006


Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2008 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It would appear that someone found a used piston that fit, but that the baffle was missing or was off by 90 degrees and they cut it off...maybe? In order to make it work they fastened on a homemade baffle, but got it 180 degrees off! It should be blocking the intake ports.

You may wish to check if the rings interfere with the ports. Make sure that there are no joints / ring gaps crossing the ports. The rings should be "pinned" or made "captive" so that they cannot rotate about a vertical axis.

Move the homemade baffle to the other side and the engine will work a lot better!

Archibald
Northfield, Minnesota
.

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