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Belle Isle Marine Engines

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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1728
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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would like to get some photos of Belle Isle Marine Engines !

Thanks in advance

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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 834
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Monday, June 23, 2008 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is Barbara Day's at Calvert
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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller

Post Number: 156
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are three pictures of mine.





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richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 626
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard here is one out of the past. When I first met Andrew I had no idea of the wonderful effort he has put in creating the OME page. In the last ten years we have learned more about the early marine engines than we learned in the previous 50 years. It is just amazing to me how people find little pieces of the puzzle. Pretty soon we have an outline and then we finally get a very detailed synopsis of the history of some of these companies now long gone.
These two photos were taken at the Whitesbog,NJ. annual Blueberry Festival. The Pinelands Antique Engine Association have a show there every year and some very interesting engines turn up. This coming weekend. We are going up to attend the show.

Andrew Menkart's Belle IsleAndrew Menkart's Belle Isle
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 376
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill, first time I've seen that ignition setup, I like it.
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 836
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill,
Thats not a Belle Isle.
Off the top of my head I can't remember what it is. However it is in the Big Yellow or Red Book. The pics in the book are real clear on the timer and water pump set up. I will look tonight if no one else beats me to it.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1730
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 07:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Thanks Ernie, Bill and Dick for the photos !

The first few years after the turn of the century in Detroit, the name Baird was a family or brothers that were active in Machines,machinery marine engine design and manufacturing, Still need more info to sort it out better, but by 1905 H.D. Baird had designed several marine engines and this 1906 ad gives him credit for designing this St Clair engine trade named "Little Skipper" It has a rectangular six bolt intake plate with the unique intake valve system, also has its own timer / water pump design.By 1907 the company went under and in 1908 sold its inventory to Gray Hawley Company and the mfging rights to the Monarch Tool & Mfging Co. of Cincinnati.
Bills engine above is from this company and is a St Clair marine engine !

1906

Stblu06

1907

StCart1
StCart2

1911

Mon1911

In 1907 I believe this same baird designed engine with changes to the intake plate now diamond shaped with the unique intake valve system and a different timer \ waterpump was mfgd and put on the market By The Belle Isle Marine Engine Co, and like Barbara Days engine in first photo.by 1910 the co. had changed their name to The Belle Isle Boat & engine Company then to The New Belle Isle Co. and in 1911 Merged With The Collapsible Concrete Form Co. to become The Concrete Form & Engine Company .

1907

Skid

LiHum

1910

newbel

1911

confrm

In 1907-08 another Marine eng came to market and still looks to be the same basic design as the above two but now with a Baird in the mfgrs name and many technological up dates ?

BaiHens

Will appreciate any info this is just My opinion and all agreeing or otherwise is welcome Just trying to sort out the real history !!

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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 837
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
I agree on the similarities of the Gray and Hawley and Belle Isle. However I think the Yale is a stretch due to the removable cylinder. If you are looking at the water pump / timer style it was used by several other MFRS. Tuttle and DuBrie for a couple.
So to end my 2 cents worth...
"Will appreciate any info this is just My opinion and all agreeing or otherwise is welcome Just trying to sort out the real history !!" HMMM seems I have heard this just recently
Maybe dumpster diving way back then was patterns on the demise of a company instead of paper or electronics like today
Ernie
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1732
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Never actually seeing any of these engs apart its that unique intake valve plate with the two valves that keeps the fuel out of the crankcase that would tie them together- and the Baird Name on Both. That odd looking intake manifold on the Yale looks to have the same diamond pattern as the Belle Isle ? Yale has an aluminum lower case for a high Hp to weight ratio, Pressurized oiling system, and was designed for competitive cup racing, what a great little engine. If anyone sees one of these Yales laying around Please send it to florida I sure would like to look inside of it ???

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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 838
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
I have had both of them apart. They are 2 port engines and the fuel and oil mix does in fact go into the base in the same way it will in a Datroit or any of the other ones where the carb or mixer is in the transfer port. The cover which contains the check valve and simply a mixer on the Gray and Hawley is just that a weird intake/check valve and a very simple mixer. On the Belle Isle it is just a cover. The carb/mixer must be the check valve style like a Lunkheimer or a carb with check valve.
Hope this helps
Ernie
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1733
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Thanks Ernie, I see that Bill's St Clair above seems to have a regular check valve on it ?

this is from 1907 Belle Isle catalog alluding to no fuel in the crankcase and the 1911 Monarch ad above mentions same ? Have any of us seen this System ? maybe they were removed because of problems ??

1907

ca1
ca2


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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 839
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 08:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

See my post above about the inside. It was a horrible design at least in my opinion. The one I had was removed. I rebuilt it only to put a real check valve back on. It ran real good but had almost no speed control. The base of both the Belle Isle and the Gray and Hawley load up with fuel like all the rest of them do. Also the timer on the Gray and Hawley left a little to be desired. I have no idea where the Gray and Hawley went. The Belle Isle is at Mystic every year and runs fine. It is now owned by Byron stiger.
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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller

Post Number: 157
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,

thank you for identifying my motor. I bought it about 3 years ago from a man from Michigan.

Here are a few more photos.











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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1734
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2008 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Bill, I appreciate the detailed photos, Didn't have any good ones of a St Clair. For a 100 yr old eng it looks to be in very good original condition- The paint I believe is original also i've seen this color pertaining to St Clair and Belle Isle engs in 1907!

1907

p07

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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 840
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Friday, June 27, 2008 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
Bob Long has a 100 percent original Belle Isle and it is green. I will try to get pics of it when he gets home.
Hope this helps
Ernie
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Peters
Visitor
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 07:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a little about the merger between New Belle Isle Motor Company and Collapsible Steel Form Company. Strange combination!:
Concrete Form & Engine Co.
In addition to Detroit’s list of manufacturing institutions is the Concrete Form & Engine Co., just organized.
This concern has been formed by the combination of the Collapsible Steel Form Co., of Detroit and Carson City, and the New Belle Isle Motor Co., also of Detroit. The first named company recently developed and placed on the market a collapsible steel form for use in building concrete culverts, conduits, small bridges, sewers, etc. This device is covered by broad patents and was first used in Carson City, where its utility was amply demonstrated. By its use the cost of concrete culverts, sewers, etc., is said to be reduced to such an extent as t make this form of construction cheaper and immensely superior to cast iron and other forms which have commonly been used.
The New Belle Isle Motor Co. has been manufacturing a line of gasoline engines for marine and stationary service, and has recently perfected an engine for use on railroad velocipedes, and power cars, for which a wide demand is already indicated.
In addition to the above, the new company will manufacture a full line of concrete and road machinery, to which its gasoline engines will be adapted. The company will locate its factory in Detroit, and will move the concrete form plant here from Carson City as soon as a suitable location can be found.
The officers of the new firm are: W. B. Gregory, president; W. W. Kenyon, second vice president, and L. K. Rumsay, secretary and Treasurer. All are well known business men.
The new company is capitalized at $150,000.
Michigan Investor, Vol. 9, No. 17, February 4, 1911. p. 16.
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Peters
Visitor
Posted on Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And now for the original firm:
Belle Isle Motor Company

Belle Isle Motor Company was primarily a marine engine manufacturer in Detroit, Wayne County, that also got into the building knock-down boats to help sell their motors. Edward R. Ryno was president of the firm. Their boat in 1907-1908 was an 18-foot compromise stern launch named Skidoo!, designed by Howard A. Pike of Providence, Rhode Island. The boat used the Belle Isle Motor Company’s “Skidoo” 2-cycle, single cylinder engine, capable of driving it at speeds of five to six miles per hour. It alternately could use the 4-5hp “Little Hummer” marine engine built by the company for speeds of nine to ten miles per hour. The boat sold for $89.90 with plans for the knock-down frame and a complete engine. Planking had to be supplied by the buyer. The company forfeited its charter and filed notice of its dissolution on March 22, 1909. It was replaced by the New Belle Isle Motor Company under different ownership.

Sources:

Pike, Howard A. How to Build an 18-Ft. Launch (Detroit, MI: Belle Isle Motor Company, 1907?) Library of Michigan, Rare Book Collection.

Fisher, Robert D. (ed.) Marvyn Scudder Manual of Extinct or Obsolete Companies, Vol. III (New York: Marvyn Scudder Manual of Extinct or Obsolete Companies, Inc., 1930.) p
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1735
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2008 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Scott

Thanks for the info, always good to see your posts here to help sort out this Old Marine Engine History !

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searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher

Post Number: 598
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, January 17, 2014 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

These are the best depictions I could get from screen captures of scanned advertisements. One of the Yale engines is 28hp, the other is a two cylinder Yale engine, 7 x 14, but the hp is not mentioned. If 7 x 14 is actually the bore and stroke (14 seems like an awfully long stroke so it may refer to something else?) of the two cylinder, it must have been in the same hp range.

The Yale engine depicted earlier in this thread is a product of Baird and Henselwood, Detroit. There is a tiny shred of evidence of a Yale engine built in Portland, Maine c.1898. Is there more than one company that built an engine called the Yale?


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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 3201
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Six listings in my records


1. Baird & Henselwood Co. Michigan, Detroit trade name-Little Skipper, Yale 1908ca


2.Baird Machine and Manufacturing Company successor to Number one above trade name-Little Skipper,Yale 1911ca


3. H.A. Clifford, New Hampshire, Concord Trade name- Granite State, Yale. 1912ca


4.Denison Electric Engineering Co./ Denison, Julian, F.,Conecticut, New Haven , trade name-Yale
1900-1911ca.

5.Heaps Engineering Co. Ltd,Canada, British Columbia, New Westminster,trade name-Yale, Heaps, Junkers diesel, 1912- 1930's


6.Superior Machine & Engineering Co.Michigan, Detroit trade name-Yale 1900ca

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searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher

Post Number: 600
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 18, 2014 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the Yale list. Eventually, I will spend some time in Portland trying to expand the Maine engine list and will keep an eye out for the Yale name. However, I would not be surprised to learn that the Yale attributed to Portland was in fact the New Hampshire Yale on your list.
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jim_parrott
Senior Member
Username: jim_parrott

Post Number: 147
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Saturday, September 02, 2017 - 10:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Having recently acquired a St.Clair I became interested in the Baird fuel systems. Anybody have an actual picture of the weird little assembly Ernie mentions above? See Patent link below.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pdfs/US87 4822.pdf

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