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New Find - Lozier single cylinder

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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 510
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 09:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was out for a walk in the autumn leaves and looked behind a shed and found this engine. I talked to the man that has the shed and I might be able to get it. I didn't have much time to see if there is a serial number.

The challenge is that in a couple of weeks it will be buried in snow.

In these parts, there aren't many engines like this.

I might have to wait until next year in April or May.

miro

Been sitting here for years.
one

Pulled back the old tarp and found
two

Most of it is all there
three

Here's the tag
four
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matt_morehouse
Senior Member
Username: matt_morehouse

Post Number: 64
Registered: 12-2009
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 10:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is an exciting find. I would be on that today. Wave a C-Note under his nose and bring a strong friend.
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andrew
Moderator
Username: andrew

Post Number: 1083
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miro,

There are not too many of those engines anywhere... You should definitely try to save it. I have two of them, one is stamped as 2-1/2HP and the other as 3HP, but they are the same engine. Hopefully that one has the water pump. Chain driven in the rear and not visible from your photos. Some also had an optional magneto driven by the flywheel.

There was a reprinted Lozier booklet by Vestal Press with good information on the engine. A number of museums have boats with Lozier engines on display including the Adirondack Museum and the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum. Plattsburgh NY Historical Society Museum has at least one engine also.

Do a search of this board for Lozier and you will find a lot of links and photos.

Keep us posted! Thanks.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2469
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
Miro
Another mystery solved !
I have had these two photos of this Lozier for several yrs but didn't know where it was ?
The twig growing behind it then, is now in your photos several feet high ?
Next April or May ? Your surely just jesting with us ?
Just checked my "Motor Getter Calculator" Looked under 100 plus year old Lozier to recover from side or rear of house = less than 6 minutes to strapped down in pickup bed ? A little longer if it requires a snow shovel, snow plow or a bulldozer !!


L1

L2

*
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 524
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2010 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well folks, I took your advice and took advantage of the good weather up here and brought the Lozier home - at least to my northern home.

I'm preparing a video of the move.
One of the neighbours happened to be walking by and he says that he recalls seeing the engine in the 1940's - captured that comment in the video.

A couple of interesting features.
The grease cups for the main bearings are cast into the crankcase - both front and rear.
The timer seems to run on an internal shaft originating inside the crankcase.

If you have questions, I'll be going up north again on Friday so I can take more pictures and possible answer questions.

miro


1

Here are the cast-inplace grease cups - actually more like grease containers.

two

three

Here si the picture of the timer. The handle still has much of the nickel plating on it.

four
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2473
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
Way to go miro, that is a great old engine,will start looking for photo of water/pump. I believe that Scott at Mystic has a Lozier with piston pump like yours ?

Andrew you mentioned chain driven water/pump on your Lozier - possible to post photos of it ?

*
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scott_n
Senior Member
Username: scott_n

Post Number: 178
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 07:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you got a good one hear are some pictures of ours you can sea it is salt iron to







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scott_n
Senior Member
Username: scott_n

Post Number: 179
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you got a good one hear are some pictures of ours you can sea it is salt iron to
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 525
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 08:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Scott.
It appears that the timer on yours is different and the flywheel has spokes, not solid.
Any chance of getting a better shot of the water pump?

Here's the video of the recovery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzLmuZ3WUAM

miro
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andrew
Moderator
Username: andrew

Post Number: 1086
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miro and Bob contacted me about a water pump to use for measurements to create a replacement. My two engines both take the gear driven water pump (I think I only have one pump between the two).

I checked some of the pictures that I have and it looks like the engine at the Lake Champlain Maritime Museum and at least one a the Clinton County Historical Society Museum in Plattsburg both have eccentric driven water pumps... BUT they are different and it's possible that neither is the same as what Miro's engine requires. The water pump on the engine at Mystic that Scott has posted above looks to me like it might be the closest to what Miro might need.

I will see if I can scan some of the pictures tomorrow and post them.
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 526
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard D.

I managed to get up north today (for all you Cajun gang guys - that's MORE north) , scrubbed off the boss on the flywheel and got the Serial Number.
It is 1896.

miro

I had to fiddle with the settings and it is quite awkward to get the right angle to get the numbers to show up.

0ne
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 527
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 09:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andrew, I'm trying to figure out where the water exits the cylinder. There isn't any obvious connection out of the cylinder.
There is a relatively small hole near the top of the water jacket above the exhaust port.

miro
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2474
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Friday, November 12, 2010 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
Miro

The 1896 is probably not a mfg date, this is a
copy of notes on Lozier

"One of the early Pioneer Marine Eng Co's.started developement of engines in Toledo Ohio,in 1897 as an arm of H.A. Lozier Mfg Co. of Cleveland, a large bicycle Mfgr and sewing machine Co.In 1900 moved to Plattsburg N.Y as the 'Lozier Motor Co.".

I will look at what info I have on Lozier and post it.

If anyone with Loziers would post Photos of
their engs it might help with trying to sort out the different models and years that they were manufactured ?

*

*
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2475
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 08:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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This 1900 catalog with the Ohio address should cover the earliest mfgd Lozier engs ?

Miro, Looks like the original design was a wet exhaust,
a pipe within a pipe !

Interesting gear driven waterpump.

1900

LO

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

1897


1897

*
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2476
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 08:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
From Gardner Hiscock's 1906 edition,have gone to the chain drive oberdorer style waterpump.

Better illustration of the wet exhaust design.


GH06

*
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2478
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
Not one comment, not one photo, "My opologies for
boring everyone".

Summation, Lozier's move to Platsburgh in 1900-01 the company was mfgring boats in another
facility and concentrating on mfg of marine engs at Platsburgh plant on the river, but the interest within the Company started to change and after a few yrs Lozier had another plant in town to mfgr automobiles. I have seen a 1906 ad that still mentions the two & four cycle marine engines, so far its the latest one I can find. 1907 was a dificult yr for business and records show that Lozier was laying off some workers. by 1910 the Platsburgh marine plant on the river was closed, the management with different money men in the drivers seat took the company to Detroit to facilitate the production of the Lozier automobiles !
So not sure if Marine engines were mfgd in 1907-10 I will assume not untill new info changes that premise ?

The illustation in above post fig 179 is I believe several yrs earlier engine than 1906 and was probably 1902 ca ?

This one and only ad of the later style engines is 1905 and looks to be like the Mystics
make & break with plunger waterpump. Scott take a look at the make & break mechanism with an advance timing lever and support bracket on crankcase like yours, how about that curved around the exhaust outlet actuator rod ?
So far no mention of Lozier with Jump Spark ignition but most mfgrs had the option by 1905-06 ?
No Lozier two stroke photos show a fIywheel with holes ? would Date Mystics eng and Miros at 1904-06, only my guess but it can't be off much ??

1905

Lz05


**
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andrew
Moderator
Username: andrew

Post Number: 1089
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Monday, November 15, 2010 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,

Great information.

One of the two Loziers engines I have has the Toledo Ohio nameplate. It would be the older one. It rates the engine as 2-1/2HP while the same bore and stroke engine with the Plattsburg NY tag rates it as 3HP.

Otherwise the two engines are very much the same.
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 529
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Wednesday, November 17, 2010 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was up north at the shop and took a look at the timer - managed to get the crankcase cover off too without damage.
The timer runs on a 1:1 gear off the crank and is attached to the speed adjusting lever. I believe the lever's pivot also changes the position of the vane inside the bypass port to alter the amount of fuel getting to the cylinder.

I found it interesting that Lozier would go to the expense of driving the timer from a 1:1 gear of the crank, when there ought to have been other manufacturers that were using timers attached directly to the crankshaft.

timer


There is a boss cast into the cylinder just above the exhaust port - see picture.
I was not able to determine if that boss is open and connected to the water jacket . I think I'd be able to do that if I cut the length of the pipe in the exhaust port.

boss

Given the ignition is a spark ( not M&B) and the piston water pump, I suspect this engine is in the later part of the marine engine production time period.

I was able to take a peek inside the cylinder with a small LED inspection light and it looked not too badly rusted in there. The cylinder walls n some parts were still smooth.
Looking in from the exhaust port, the piston wall was quite rusted.

miro
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 530
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are 2 pictures of what remains of the float from the Schebler carburetor.
You can see distinctly that it is made of of laminations.
The material seems to be some kind of paper product.It certainly is not cork.

Based on the interior of the carb bowl, it looks like the original float.

miro

one


two

You can also see small dimples in the surface of the laminations - I wonder what kind of adhesive they use, since the fuels of that era were more like today's naptha gas.
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john_archibald
Senior Member
Username: john_archibald

Post Number: 157
Registered: 08-2006


Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It could be cork. Cork is really the bark of the tree. You can sometimes see layers in it.

Or it could have been a homemade attempt by layering several thin pieces of cork together and then sewing them or "riveting" them together in some manner. Some lacquer paint would have to be used to seal it. Lacquer isn't attacked by gasoline.

Possible scenarios from afar.

Archibald
Northfield, Minnesota
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 532
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John - I'll tell yah what - meet me in LA in March - I'll bring the laminations and we can jointly discuss this over a tall cool beverage.

March in northern Minnesota vs LA in March - no contest :-}
M
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john_archibald
Senior Member
Username: john_archibald

Post Number: 158
Registered: 08-2006


Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2010 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miro,

I'm 60 now and so far I have avoided L.A.

I don't see a need to even fly over the place.

However, the invite is much appreciated on general grounds.

It will be interesting to see what material it turns out to be if discovered.

Archibald
Northfield, Minnesota; where there are two seasons, winter and nine months of mosquitoes!
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richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 918
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, You never bore me and I am sure others feel the same. I am always amazed at the speed you are able to surface writings, drawings and photos. Hope you can make CMM 14/15 May.
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bcm
Member
Username: bcm

Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2009
Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miro,

Floats for Schebler Model D may be purchasable from Mike Windsor in Gravenhust . These are purported to withstand E10.

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bruce
Senior Member
Username: bruce

Post Number: 241
Registered: 07-2002
Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John Archibald. Are you thinking L.A. as in Los Angeles? Miro is thinking La. as in Louisiana as in JB and the bayou crew. I agree with you on L.A.; I flew through LAX once-don't expect to be in L.A. airspace ever again
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laurie_d
Senior Member
Username: laurie_d

Post Number: 79
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are there any details available about the Model D floats from Mike Windsor?
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richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 919
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dave Reed at OTTO@ringspacers.com sells Paul Grays modern synthetic plastic Model D floats in the common sizes. They are much better than the cork repoductions as they are slightly smaller and much easier to install or remove. They also are not destroyed by Ethanol. One point I must stress there must be a cork or suitable synthetic O ring at the top of the Model D throat to close the gap between the top of the throat and the underside of the cover. Without that gap plugged the carb will not function well. No gasket between the throttle plate and the cover or between the cover rim and bowl top and no gasket over the inlet to the throat. Note the small drain slit at the lower end of the throat.
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laurie_d
Senior Member
Username: laurie_d

Post Number: 80
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Monday, November 22, 2010 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Richard, I have emailed Dave for some details. Either way I have to prepare my 18' boat to watch the Sydney-Hobart race fleet go past on Boxing day. Regards Laurie
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john_archibald
Senior Member
Username: john_archibald

Post Number: 159
Registered: 08-2006


Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 09:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce,

Miro and I got the geography corrected offline. I was assuming he meant a certain large city in California. It was an incorrect assumption.

Archibald
Northfield, Minnesota
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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller

Post Number: 368
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, November 23, 2010 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After watching "Swamp People", maybe Minnesota in March isn't so bad. Besides, Northfield is actually in balmy Southern Minnesota.

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