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Coatings for water jackets internal

Old Marine Engine » One and Two Cylinder Gas Inboards » Coatings for water jackets internal « Previous Next »

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rshields
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Username: rshields

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2013
Posted on Monday, April 01, 2013 - 02:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am in the process of rebuilding an Atlantic 4 hp. Has anyone had any experience with coating the inside of the water jacket with either a paint or the 'rust converter' product that changes rust to a polymer by reacting with the rust, to stop the continuous rusting of the casting. The engine I have was stored in Edmonton Alberta (dry climate( for 25 years and was working when it was first stored. However, the water jacket was completely filled with rust and cracked the casting, so I would like to stop any more of the rusting process if possible.

OR any other suggestions would be appreciated.
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qwilkin
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Username: qwilkin

Post Number: 78
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Monday, April 01, 2013 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have seen many photos of engines restored and the brass parts are so well polished . I have a blaxland twin engine which I am restoring and many of the brass parts are coverd in paint . I had a carb overhauled some time back and it came back gleaming as if it had been submerged in a solution . Can anyone help please as to what to use .

Thank You Quinton
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richardday
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Username: richardday

Post Number: 1055
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Monday, April 01, 2013 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your only hope in my opinion is high temp controlled heating to drive the salt out of the pores of the cast iron. No Dip, No Acid, No Caustic soda is going to work. The temp needs to be controlled so you don't warp the structure and once you have the salt out of the iron then it can be welded/brazed etc. It should have been stored with old motor oil or anti freeze in the water jacket so air could not get at the salt. Your best hope is George Coates IV (george@ghcoates.com)in Elkton, Maryland. You can see examples of their incredible work on salt poisoned cast iron on this page.
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robert
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Username: robert

Post Number: 540
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Monday, April 01, 2013 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quinton,
You can just use paint stripper to remove the paint. Simplest, easiest and least labour & cost. Once the paint is off you can decide whether you want to polish the brass or not. The carb shop probably used a dilute solution of muriatic acid. Nasty stuff to work with if you buy it full strength; vinegar works almost as well, but slower.

If your brass work is sand cast it will probably be quite rough. If you're not equipped to smooth and polish castings your best bet is to take the parts to a polishing shop. You can save yourself some money if you file and hand sand the castings yourself as much as possible first. Some polishers are careful not to spoil the profile and shape of pieces; some are ham-fisted clowns who don't care.

The rougher your parts are, the heavier, faster cutting abrasives they will use to polish them, and the more likely they are to deform them. That's why the smoother they are when you drop them off, the better and cheaper the job should be.

Rotary cotton buffs are inclined to round everything they touch. In the old days I understand they used wet leather belts with powdered abrasive as these would conform to the shape of the object being polished and cause much less rounding & deformation. A lost art now I suspect.
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senojn
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Username: senojn

Post Number: 105
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2013 - 02:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quinton ,Sir.
I have mentioned this to you before !
Please post (ask questions) under an appropriate subject heading .
You have asked your question under the heading of internal water jacket coatings .
You have missed your audience and they have missed you!
You could look under the many references (Search) at top of page ,for example polishing /cleaning/brass/copper etc.
Your question is also covered under the Blaxland pages to the enth degree .

I carefully use hydrochloric acid (swimming pools ) or vinegar and buff .

Neil
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keith
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Username: keith

Post Number: 387
Registered: 02-2002


Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2013 - 09:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to take this post back to the original question, and that is to a water jacket sealer. Anyone have any input?
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s.marsh
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Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2013 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eastwood glyptal block sealer is what you need.The problem would be getting old interior surfaces clean enough for it to adhere.
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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 1630
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2013 - 09:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I use real zinc chromate paint thinned 50%.
There is a Badly rusted and cracked salt water 3 HP Lathrop that I repaired the water jacket on over 15 years ago and it still has ho signs of rust in the jacket.
I tried it on a piece of water jacket so I could see how it soaked in and the penetration through what ever was on the internal surface was real good
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axtion_jim
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Username: axtion_jim

Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2013 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My question is at what is considered a high enough controlled temparture to cook out the salt. From personal expearance I use a good wood fire in the yard and that must be over 500 degrees.It has beed suggested by others to use a electric stove, but I would like to know that all of the salt has been cooked out.
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robert
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Username: robert

Post Number: 544
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Friday, April 05, 2013 - 12:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Self-cleaning ovens get up to around 850, which should be good enough. Aside from being cheap and readily available, they also heat up and cool down slowly, which is important to avoid distortion I've always heard. A retired electric pottery kiln would be the next option, and a good one too, if you want to repair cylinders the way Mr. Coates does as you can heat the cylinder to whatever temperature you need for gas or arc welding without distortion or cracking.
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klanger
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Username: klanger

Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2012


Posted on Friday, April 05, 2013 - 07:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If using an old pottery kiln, for how long would you need to hold at temperature to ensure the salt has been expelled?
And how would the cylinder be placed in kiln, packed in anything or just standing in the centre of kiln. I have access to an electric kiln and would like to treat and seal cylinder.

Kev
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robert
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Username: robert

Post Number: 545
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Friday, April 05, 2013 - 10:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This would be question to ask someone involved in museum conservation of marine artifacts or the conservation of steel structures in a marine environment.

Is the salt actually expelled or is it 'converted' in some way? Or is the real advantage of this method to burn off all water, oils and other contaminants that have penetrated the metal over the years? That would allow any treatment to penetrate much further into the metal, and if applied while the metal is still warm and has not re-absorbed moisture from the air, the coating or treatment applied would prevent any moisture from again migrating into the metal, contacting the salts and restarting the process of oxidization.

The key factor is the airtight nature of the coating and how long that sealing effect lasts. That's my understanding of the process for what it's worth. So AFAIK, the heat does not drive out the salts unless they are carried out by the expulsion of oils and water that in the metal as it is heated.
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scott_n
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Username: scott_n

Post Number: 227
Registered: 02-2008
Posted on Friday, April 05, 2013 - 11:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

as fore question 2 I boil painted brass and bronze in TSP and water it removes the paint with no Mechanical cleaning
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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 1631
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Friday, April 05, 2013 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sodium chloride, also known as salt, common salt, table salt, sea salt or halite, is an ionic compound with the formula NaCl, representing equal proportions of sodium and chloride.
melting point 1474 deg F
boiling point 2575 deg F
So I guess going over 2575 deg F causes it to simply turn into a gas and leave where ever it was.
Amazing what you can find on the net.
Also amazing are all the other things we get to learn simply because we play with old engines.
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keith
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Username: keith

Post Number: 388
Registered: 02-2002


Posted on Friday, April 05, 2013 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie, So I'm not to bright. Do I heat the cast iron to 2575 degrees (for how long) and then treat with a 50% zinc chromate solution? I'm not being sarcastic but looking for a clear answer. I'm not sure the answer is out there. I'm not aware of museums treating marine artifacts using heat. ????????
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axtion_jim
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Username: axtion_jim

Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Saturday, April 06, 2013 - 12:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie, That is the same formula I found when I went pooking around a web site connected to the pottery hobby. Maybe we can ask a potter how long it take to cook the salt out of the clay. I would think less time with cast iron parts.
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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 1632
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Sunday, April 07, 2013 - 07:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I looked up NaCl SALT to find its melting and boiling points to answer a question on what happens to the salt in the iron when heated in a kiln.
As to coating the inside of the jacket I have done 3 engines where the jacket was falling off. I cleaned the rust out of the inside and put the outer jacket back on with epoxy. Then coated the inside with thinned zinc chromate. These engines were not heated in a kiln.
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axtion_jim
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Username: axtion_jim

Post Number: 35
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Monday, April 08, 2013 - 12:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie. Myself and my old friend Harvey used the fire trick, Don`t know what the actual tempature of the fire was at the time. Any way what we did know is that made the job of removing the rusty scale a lot easer. Also the metal was already up to a bit of a welding heat. After the welding job was completed I placed the piece in a box of zone o lite to cool off, don`t tell the inviro police that I still have Zone o-lite.The process was very simple and with out formula,cook,clean,weld,assemble,play with it.
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axtion_jim
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Username: axtion_jim

Post Number: 36
Registered: 11-2010
Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 12:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Purchased a Duncan EA-716 Kiln today. Rated for 2714 degrees fahreneit, that should do the trick on the salt. All I have to do now is wire the kiln for the 240 volt single phase.
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robert
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Username: robert

Post Number: 548
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 01:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny you say that; I just bought a kiln too! After I do my cylinders it can go to the next guy. Use outside on a VERY windy day!
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robert
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Username: robert

Post Number: 549
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 01:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny you say that; I just bought a kiln too! After I do my cylinders it can go to the next guy. Use outside on a VERY windy day!
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richardday
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Username: richardday

Post Number: 1056
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Tuesday, April 16, 2013 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I see super high temperatures I wonder how much warping will occur in the casting. I would urge a little practice on junk hollow castings. It is one thing to drive the salt out of the iron but if you are not careful you can warp the casting so it is permanently damaged. Seems to me the objective is to get the rust to break loose and at the same time not destroy the casting.
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robert
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Username: robert

Post Number: 552
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Friday, April 19, 2013 - 02:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One thing I wonder about the heat method vs. electrolysis is that the latter method is supposed to restore some strength to the treated iron if I remember rightly?

Could that effect be achieved by doing electrolysis after the heat treatment has burned out all paint, oil residues etc. that might interfere with the electrolysis?
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jb_castagnos
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Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 791
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Friday, April 19, 2013 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Electrolysis travels "line of sight" or shortest path. If you put a large cylinder in the tank, the external parts are closest to the return path, there's going to be little flow from the interior of the jacket. Painting the exterior would help insulate it and make it draw from the interior. I think you could put a perforated cover over a rod and slip it into the jacket, the cover would keep it from grounding and allow you to clean the inside of the cylinder.
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marks
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Username: marks

Post Number: 149
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Saturday, April 20, 2013 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For electrolysis I thread a piece of stainless wire through the water jacket which is inside a piece of clear plastic tube (from the aquarium shop). The tube has holes drilled through it every half inch or so, from one side to the other.

Sometimes it is necessary to drill holes in the jacket to get enough access. These are easily plugged when done - tap, screw a bolt with a dab of epoxy and cut it off.

In terms of heat I find that cherry red (in the shade in daylight) works fine. I have pieces which were in poor condition done 10 years ago and they are going fine.

Cheers,

Mark S.
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davey1000
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Username: davey1000

Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have had some success with cylinder blocks from the "British Seagull" outboard motors. These are two-cycle motors which are raw water cooled. A lot of people despise these motors but after fifty years of abuse and neglect how can they be expected to work properly? One needs to remove the block from the crankcase then remove the cylinder head which is marked "Do Not Remove". Usually all the water passages will be choked solid with rust. A drill press fitted with a masonry drill can be used initially but use the type with a round shank and don't have the drill chuck or the pulley belts too tight. A Dremel fitted with grindstones can also be useful. Formic acid sold as kettle descaler does remove rust if left overnight but the end result is rather messy. One article that I read that was written in the 1920s advised using Hydrofluoric Acid as allegedly it dissolves rust whilst ignoring metal but HF is such a dangerous chemical that other ways need to be investigated. Phosphoric Acid perhaps?

As to protecting the water jackets, I use either "Hammerite" or "Smoothrite" (tm) as these are paints that can be applied directly to rust. Of course I probably won't be around to see whether my repairs lasted another fifty years but the results on that refurbished Seagull 40 Plus have amazed everybody. OK its a "Gold Top" (The Wipac ignition version) so it starts on the first, second or third pull. The improved cooling means that it can run for as long as the fuel lasts and there is no cutting out or stalling caused by excess heat. The bad reputation is caused by silly people trying to use stale fuel in 50 year old motors with rusted-up water jackets and guess what? The motors won't work! It's not rocket science!
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davey1000
Member
Username: davey1000

Post Number: 6
Registered: 12-2010
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2014 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PS A lot of UK museums and government departments use "Fertan". AFAIK this is based on tannic acid. It turns the rust to a dark blue colour but it will also stain ones hands and clothing. As chemicals go this one seems fairly safe to use. After the metal has been treated one washes-off the un-reacted Fertan several hours later. The metal is then dried and painted.
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 1814
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2014 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am going to try some POR 15 paint in the next few days. POR is paint over rust.

http://www.por15.com/
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bpineo
Member
Username: bpineo

Post Number: 24
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2014 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Ernie. Brandon here. I have tried the por-15, and I must say that the "Metal prep etch" that they sell as a companion product is very good. I tried the paint without the prep and it did peal after a winter of use. Bought the prep-etch solution and the paint never pealed again. It's the only part of my car that did not rust!

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