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Liberty V12 restoration

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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2013
Posted on Monday, August 26, 2013 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have 2 liberty v12 engines I'm considering restoring in the near future for static display or possibly to running condition depending on the condition of parts. Who here knows much about these particular engines or has parts for them? finding any kind of information about these engines on the internet has turned up little to nothing for me.
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ldobbins
Senior Member
Username: ldobbins

Post Number: 125
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Wednesday, August 28, 2013 - 01:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greetings,

Do you have true aircraft Liberty engines or do you have any of the many companies that marinized the Liberty engines.

Who manufactured the engines you have?

Do you know if they are ARMY or Navy engines? This will determine the HP and cylinder sleeve composition.

All of these will help to identify what you have and to their rarity.

After figuring out what you have, there are several companies that can assist in either a marine or aircraft style restoration. Cylinder barrels have been fabricated for a couple decades now as most original ones are rotted out. Some other new replacement parts such as ignition coils are available.

There are also some modifications that are common today to make them leak less oil at the cam/rocker housings.

Cool engines indeed for show or operation.

Cheers,

Lew The West Coast Sterling Guy!
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miro
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Username: miro

Post Number: 714
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2013 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you look at

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/2/258648.html

you will see a Liberty in pieces, which I hope by now is all assembled and in running condition.

The video was made last winter and Chris, the guy doing the restoration had lined up sources for virtually all of the parts.

If you email me a private message, I can provide his contact info.

miro
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2013
Posted on Friday, August 30, 2013 - 08:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My understanding is that they are aircraft engines, whether they are Army or Navy, that I wont know until I can get them out of the back of the shop. (Very buried in the most inaccessible part of a very big shop). Trying to do my research before I dig into the project.
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Tuesday, September 10, 2013 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I am working on a Resto of an Army Liberty now. You are right there is very little info on the internet out there. Every thing I have learned has been through hundreds of hours of research. I am also looking for parts . Drop me a line.
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 09:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://s619.photobucket.com/user/mkubler7/library/Liberty

here is a link to the pictures of the engines. Anyone able to identify what they are based on the pictures?
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What you have is 2- 1500 inch Packard engines. The give away is the these engine are set up for mag ignition. The drive comes off of the lower end of the vertical drive shaft tube on the lt.& rt. side. The block is about 1 1/2 shorter in height than the Liberty block. And the casting date is to late for liberty. There many differences between the to engines, To many to list. How ever you do have VERY cool engines.If have any question feel free to a line.
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robert
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Username: robert

Post Number: 602
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For a minute there I thought you might have the engines out of the "missing" Westland Whirlwind, whose engines reportedly ended up in a boat owned by a USN officer in WWII!
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well now! So the numbers cast on the side of the block indicating early 40's is accurate?
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diesel Weasel, are you sure about these being Packards?
the picture below of the rocker covers look much like the liberty rather than the Packard engine. At least I have not seen a picture of packards with that style rocker cover..?
http://s619.photobucket.com/user/mkubler7/media/Liberty/CAM02614_zpsb82b2766.jpg .html?sort=3&o=3
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe those casting dates to be within 6 month to a year of production of the actual running engine.The trick is to find any missing parts. With any luck most of them will be there.I will do a little research on them to find out what aircraft they were used in. That will tell us more about the different applications, hp and RPM range.
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

awesome! Im very curious to find out more about them!
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes,The Early Packard v-12 production engines ran an open valve train almost Identical to the liberty.I will see if I have any photo's of the Packard and liberty that are good enough to post.
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.enginehistory.org/Museums/packard1.shtml
interesting info
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The photo i found are of the earlier engine you will be able to see the similarity to the L-12. Now Keep in mind they made several different engines on the same pattern with constant up date.
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what throws me for a curve is, I cant find a single Packard or Liberty engine with accessory drives on the front of the engine. What are the two pads at the front of the engines for? In addition to that, the nose portion is removable rather than being part of the block casting, while thats common on geared engines, not so common on direct drive engines. From my limited experience with these engines at least.
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Friday, September 13, 2013 - 11:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That I can't say for sure. I would be willing to bet money they have something to do with adjustable pitch prop.Even back in the 40's there was still huge amounts of experimental stuff going on.
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Monday, September 16, 2013 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was doing a little more research on your engine. Do you have any pic's of the jugs? What is the bore size? How long are the rocker boxes?
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 12:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately I do not have that information. The boxes were buried in the back of the shop up on pallet racks. It was enough of a challenge just getting the pictures. I am planning a trip back to the shop in the near future to get the engines and begin restoration.
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well after doing a bit more research. I Believe you have 2 Nuffield or Morris tank engines. I found them in one of my books after a lot of digging.They can be found in a book called (A Technical& operational HISTORY OF THE LIBERTY ENGINE).The Nuffield engines start around page 415. There are several references to this engine through out the book.This book is still in print and can be had through Specialty press.If you want I can dig a little more to see what else i can find?
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ldobbins
Senior Member
Username: ldobbins

Post Number: 128
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Friday, September 20, 2013 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A must book for anyone doing Liberty research or restoration!

Robert Neal did an amazing job on this book as he did with Master Motor Builders and Packard at Speed.

Cheers,

Lew
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2013 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes please!! I am very interested to see what else we can dig up!
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Sunday, September 22, 2013 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I have found so far is that the Nuffield engines were produced from late 1938 to the end of 1943. That marks the end of the contract with Morris on the production of the Nuffield Liberty.During this time The Nuffield liberty went through 5 major production changes.This engine was used in the British tank model A-13 to the A-24. (Battle Cruiser,Crusader mk I,II,III,ect.)The tanks got progressively heavier as the armament and Armour got better. Hence the need for more H.P..In 1941 contacts were issued to Rolls Royce for the meteor engine which was capable of 600 H.P..However the liberty was kept in service until they worked out the production problems 1943. There is a bit more info on this engine But that what i have so far. Gotta eat chow now!
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 12:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Look up Nuffield liberty engine(Google)There is a good Pic in flicker photo sharing. I will be about 6 or 7 from the top.
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Jamie Fairchild
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Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2013 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Mike,
The engines are both Nuffield Liberty mark Vs and were originally fitted to the Centaur cruiser tanks (mark IIIs in earlier Crusaders, mark IVs went in later Crusaders and Cavaliers). The Cromwell tank is otherwise identical but fitted with the Rolls Royce Meteor for the reasons Dieselweasel has stated. To add confusion, Centaur tanks were originally designated Cromwell I.
Each engine is fitted with 2 Lucas distributors. The cylinders are cast iron, based I think on Vimalert marine cylinders. The mark IV & V engines have auxiliary shaft drives coming off at right angles to the crankshaft (to drive the radiator cooling fans). The ones off the cam-shaft drives are for the David mechanical fuel pumps.
There are a few of these engines here in the U.K. and others dotted around the world. Clive and Bruce Woolley have put an identical engine in a RR chassis - see 'Liberty V12 first start up' on youtube. The engine is detailed in the tank 'Service Instruction Book' and 'Parts Book' for the relevant models.
The engines were built at two plants, one in Birmingham, the other in Coventry.
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dieselweasel
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Username: dieselweasel

Post Number: 11
Registered: 09-2013
Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2013 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am glade to hear that some one knows the finer points of the British liberty.The question I have is did the British up date the rod & main bearings from the Babbitt bronze to a more modern shell insert?
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Jamie Fairchild
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Posted on Wednesday, October 09, 2013 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Dieselweasel.
Not sure about the earlier marks but the 1945 Service Instruction Book (for Centaur tank - mark V engines) describes the bearings as 'flanged white-metal-lined steel backed'. This description applies to both main and big end bearings. The cylinders have stellite valve seats.
Most of the modifications are described in detail in Bob Neal's book on the Liberty together with comparison of the 1918 engine with the Nuffield models.
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2013 - 09:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My my! You have found some fascinating stuff there! Jamie you have the service instruction book for these engines??
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Jamie Fairchild
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Posted on Thursday, October 10, 2013 - 01:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike
I have a Service Instruction book for Centaur & Cromwell and a Centaur Parts Book, plus photo copies of the engine sections of most of the series. To be honest however, the Nuffield Liberty service/overhaul information in any of the manuals is pretty basic (maybe 15 pages each). The parts book is possibly more useful. By contrast there is much more available on the aero Liberty.The reclamation manual for the Meteor (giving spec and procedures for salvaging worn or combat damaged components) is alone around 800 pages.

There are no spares around that I'm aware of although several sets of 'new' cylinders were found in South America relatively recently. Valves and springs can normally be made. The spark plugs are 18mm.

The induction/carbs is quite different on the Nuffield. Two carbs are mounted at one end (one for each bank). The first cylinders run rich while the far ones run lean. When fitting them to a car or boat, the best bet is to replace the two Solex types with say 4 SUs. The far end of the induction manifolds are identical to the carb end with blanking plates so its a relatively easy conversion.

Most of the engines in UK have long gone. The survivors have come off firing ranges or from one scrapyard (long emptied) in Portsmouth. A large number of Centaur gun tanks were converted to dozer tanks at the end of the war and so continued in active service into the '50s.

The British army converted Centaurs to Cromwells (by fitting the Meteor). New Comet tanks started replacing Cromwells during the push into Germany. The First prototype Centurions were built as WW2 ended. At least one BARV Centurion (Beach Armoured Recovery) served in the second Gulf War, fitted with a Meteor. Thus the Meteor completed 60 years in active service. The generator engine in the Centurion served even longer. It used an engine designed, I believe, in 1935 for the Morris 8 car !
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2013 - 08:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jamie, what would it take to get copies of some of the information required to restore these engines? :-)
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Jamie fairchild
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Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Mike

I've had another look at the manuals;

The Service Instruction Book is divided into two; 'Operation and Maintenance' and 'Detailed Description' - approx 25 pages total on the engine.

The Parts Book has 28 pages of drawings on the engine and approx. 35-40 pages of the corresponding part number/description/quantity.

I should be able to scan these and can e-mail them but is there a public area suitable for posting, in case they are of general interest ? Maybe Photobucket ?

By the way Mike, what is the history of your engines ? Do you have cylinders for them ?
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mikesaero
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Username: mikesaero

Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2013


Posted on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Photobucket would work if you scan them as pictures (jpg), if you scanned them as PDF files, I'm not exactly sure where we could post them for public access. These engines came out of Argentina, and yes I have cylinders, however I am not sure of their condition.

otherwise, my email is mikewhiskeykilo@yahoo.com
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howitzers
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Username: howitzers

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2013
Posted on Sunday, November 03, 2013 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im fixing up a Liberty engine for use in a restored 80 year old mahogany speedboat. Have you uncovered any source for parts, such as cylinders? Camshaft housings? Wed like to replace a poorly welded camshaft housing. Our cylinders are sheet metal aircraft type and the heavier cast cylinders could be an advantage in a boat. I'm thinking (hoping)many of the parts are interchangeable.
Drop a note. markpmason@gmail.com Im located at Lake Winnipesaukee New Hampshire
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Kip Lankenau
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Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2014 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kip Motor Company manufactures ignition components for Liberty and many vintage engines. www.kipmotor.com
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libertyandrew
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Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2016 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have forged Stainless Steel Intake and Exhaust Valves available in stock, and made specifically for Liberty V12, Packard, Nuffield, Lincoln, Ford WW1 Liberty Marine conversions. Call Andrew (519) 888-0089 (landline) or (519) 505-3914

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