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HELP - Storm Surge submerged Perkins ...

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tom5677
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Username: tom5677

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2013
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For the past few years I've been restoring a 1944 wooden motoryacht with a P6 Marine engine. To cut a long & increasingly expensive story short the tidal river welland burst its banks 5th Dec 2013 during a storm surge & completely flooded the boatyard where the boat is stored.

In addition to losing a load of expensive project timber & various boat bits to the sea the engine which was stored on a pallet under a tarp next to the boat was completely submerged with silt laden saltwater.

The boatyard's engineer looked at the engine 3 days later (as soon as possible in the circumstances) The sump was drained & the rocker cover removed for inspection. Unfortunately rust had already formed. I've been told the engine will need to be stripped, cleaned & reassembled. This seems to make sense but as a non-engine guy it sounds very expensive. I've not yet had a face to face with the engineer to discuss what the job entails but removing the sump, head, gearbox, starter, injectors & water pump was mentioned over the phone. Again as non-engineer it sounds reasonable but I'd like to have some kind of understanding of what's required before speaking to the engineer again.

I'd be extremely grateful if you could let me know

What needs to be done to put the engine right?
Which parts would need to be removed, cleaned, serviced or replaced etc?
how many hours on average it should take a decent engineer to complete?

Many thanks for your kind help

Tom
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dee_perkins
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Username: dee_perkins

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2013
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i-car advantage
technical information for the collision industry
vol v11 no.4 july-august 1994

repairing a flood damaged engine.

this will give you all the info you need ( a engine is a engine it just depends what you put it into that changes ) hope this helps
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dee_perkins
New member
Username: dee_perkins

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2013
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

now for the not being lazy answer=
it would have been better to have filled up the engine with oil until work could be carried out as water needs air to cause rust ,so by now rust will be on your bearings and all exposed internal parts,which will need cleaning so its now a complete rebuild (overhaul )whilst doing this get them to check bearing wear and renew if needed you may as well renew all seals etc,last one i rebuilt with same problem cost me £1,400.oo for parts (perkins 499 -nearly the same as 4107 ) but that was with pistons including wet liners,valves & guides which you wont need ,get the head done at the same time as you will end up with a old engine that's as good as new and reliable.if someone tells you it will be better to get a new engine because of the salt water damage that's rubbish,the 499 hasn't missed a beat in 5 years.

boat yards are well know for being very expensive for any work they do, you should find a engineering shop and get a quote from them before you have to amputate both legs and a arm,all work should come with a warranty. if you are going to have to wait any-more time till fixing it fill it back up with cheap oil which will be drained and not used again to stop more damage , wishing you well with this,at least you will end up with a engine you can trust .
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dee_perkins
Member
Username: dee_perkins

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2013
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Salvaging Your Engine after being submerged in water

Machinery left under water too long corrodes. Machinery submerged in salt water corrodes much faster than in fresh water (and is more vulnerable to electrolysis or galvanic action). Generally, you want to raise the boat as soon as possible, certainly within a few days, but …

Point One

Leave the machinery submerged until you or a mechanic are available to spend three or four hours tending to the equipment. Once the engine is exposed to air, corrosion accelerates tremendously. The experts all agree that saving a few hours between raising and treatment will make the difference in a successful engine salvage.

Point Two

As soon as possible, disconnect all batteries and shore power. Besides the safety consideration, this will prevent electrolysis.

Point Three

Within minutes after raising and before anything dries off, hose down with fresh water. Don’t be shy; a little more water won’t hurt but dry mud or salt will make things worse.

Point Four

Remove the starter and alternator. They can be salvaged, and your actions now will reduce the time and expense to rebuild them. Flush them again with fresh water by running the full flow of a tap or hose into all openings. Then place them in a warm, not hot oven, for an hour or two or dry out.

Point Five

With a gasoline engine, remove the distributor cap (if it has one) and dry out the inside. You may want to replace points, condenser and coil as you would if you were tuning the engine.

On a diesel engine, look for a drain plug on the bottom of the blower housing and remove it to allow any water to drain. If it is a turbo charged diesel, remove the turbo unit from the engine. It will have to be cleaned and checked out and reinstalled by a qualified shop.

Point Six

Next, get the water out of engine. To do this:

Remove the spark plugs (or injectors in a diesel). Use a turkey baster to suction water from the cylinders.
Remove the drain plug from the bottom of the oil pan and drain the contents in a container for proper disposal. (Remember, you are responsible for oil spills). In some boats the drain plug is not accessible and the oil-water mixture must be pumped out as in an oil change. A siphon hose such as used to refuel portable kerosene heaters or an oil change pump could be used to accomplish this.
Point Seven

Fill every space inside the engine with lubricating oil or diesel fuel (which is easier to work with). Replace the drain plug and fill the crank case with the oil. At the same time, pour oil into the carburetor (if it has one) or air intake system until it flows out of each spark plug hole thereby displacing the water. Now, with plugs or injectors removed, turn the engine over by hand using a wrench or bar (or with a borrowed starter). Turn the engine over several times to distribute the oil. Refill the cylinders and carburetor to overflowing. Now you can wait for a mechanic, or if you have the mechanical inclination to do the work yourself, then proceed with the next set of steps.

Point Eight

Change the fluid or oil in the transmission or V-Drive.

Point Nine

Check for water in the fuel line and tank by removing the filter and draining the line plus a pint or two from the tank. Continue draining until all water is removed. A few drops of water can stop a gasoline engine, but will do severe damage to a diesel.

Point Ten

Now you can drain the engine of oil, reinstall the starter and alternator and add a proper amount of lube oil. Turn the engine over (using the starter) with the spark plugs removed to dispel fluid from the cylinders. Use short intermittent bursts from the starter.

Point Eleven

Install the plugs and start the engine. Watch the engine and gauges carefully and shut down immediately if you suspect a problem. Run the engine about a half an hour to get everything hot. The heat will dispel any remaining moisture.

Point Twelve

A few more oil changes and lots of preservative spray come next, but a qualified marine mechanic should call the shots from here. His expertise will allow him to determine whether all traces of water, sand and mud are out of the engine, whether electrical connections need to be replaced, whether or not the starter, generator and carburetor are OK, whether other items needs service now such as battery switch, pumps, generator, battery charger, etc. And in the end, you may have saved your engine and considerable expense and aggravation.
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dee_perkins
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Username: dee_perkins

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2013
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i forgot to ask...have you got insurance ? can you claim on it for damage ( of course the engine was in the boat at the time !...)good luck
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dee_perkins
Member
Username: dee_perkins

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2013
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Over the years the BoatU.S. insurance technical staff has directed the recovery of hundreds of vessels which have been sunk. They found that the opportunity to save the expensive engine is relatively easy if it’s done promptly and properly. While it is certainly preferable to have a mechanic salvage an engine, this may not be possible immediately after a hurricane. It may be up to you to protect your property.

NOTE to BoatUS insureds: Reasonable expenses incurred in salvaging your machinery are covered under your BoatUS policy by what is known as “Sue and Labor”.( i am in the uk ) Dee
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dee_perkins
Member
Username: dee_perkins

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2013
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2013 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi tom my email is
dlyons93@yahoo.com

Dee
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tom5677
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Username: tom5677

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2013
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2013 - 09:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Dee, many thanks for replying, have sent you a private email on the address provided...

Regards
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dee_perkins
Member
Username: dee_perkins

Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2013
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2013 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi tom,havent got email as yet 3.00 pm 13/12/03
check address sent to.
will write again here but when you use it remember to use lower case letters

DLYONS93@YAHOO>COM
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dee_perkins
Member
Username: dee_perkins

Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2013
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2013 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DLYONS93@YAHOO.COM

cap lock was on in last post (its .com not >com )
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tom5677
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Username: tom5677

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2013
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2013 - 10:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Dee, not sure whats going on there. it says the email was sent ok at my end. have sent another one just to make sure. let me know if you get it. if you don't get it, send me a blank email to wonderfulworm@yahoo.co.uk & i'll reply to it... kind regards
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tom5677
Member
Username: tom5677

Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2013
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2013 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Dee, first of all many thanks for getting back to me it’s very much appreciated.

**I have zero engine knowledge & expertise so please excuse any dumb questions

As far as I can tell your second reply (the not being lazy answer) is basically saying it’s going to need a complete rebuild because rust has now affected the bearings & all internal exposed parts.

& your third reply (written shortly afterwards) “Salvaging Your Engine after being submerged in water” reads to me as though it could have been drained & flushed through if it was done within minutes of it coming out of the water but as this wasn’t done its now too late.
1. Is this right?

Also in your “the not being lazy reply” You said “last one i rebuilt with same problem cost me £1,400.oo for parts (perkins 499 -nearly the same as 4107 ) but that was with pistons including wet liners, valves & guides which you wont need”
2. Was the rebuild labour included in that figure?

3. Roughly how much of the £1400 was attributed to purchasing “the pistons including wet liners, valves & guides” & the associated labour costs to fit these parts *which I won’t need ?

4. How recently did you have your engine rebuilt?

Regarding what was & what wasn’t included within the £1400

All my engines perishables including filters, gaskets (excluding head gasket), hoses, seals & impellers etc were replaced during a recent service to make the engine ready to go back into the boat when I’ve completed the restoration, the engine was run up to test pressure, temp & circulation etc but has not been run since, so all perishables are new & unused.
5. Am I right to assume (excluding the filters?) these will all still be ok & not require replacing?
6. Was the purchase of & the associated labour costs of fitting these perishable parts included within the £1400 your engine cost? If so roughly how much could I knock off the £1400 if it doesn’t need doing?

7. Also, can you let me know if the £1400 Included your engines final replacement oil? As I have about 35L of new Rimula RX3 15W-40 Engine oil that I can give the engineer to use once the engine has been flushed through with a cheaper oil. 40L cost me just shy of £100 & my engine’s sump capacity is 23L so hopefully that would reduce the overall cost by a further £50 or so…

The engineer I’ve spoken to charges £17.50 p/hr for labour & I’m fairly sure will do a cash price
8. How does £17.50 p/hr relate to the labour costs you paid?
9. Does the £1400 you paid include VAT?

I realise all engines are different with some being easier/quicker to work on than others etc & you can’t give an accurate price but I’m afraid cash is extremely tight so I’m just trying to work out what was included within the £1400 you paid to put yours right & what if anything I shouldn’t need to pay for & anything extra I might need to pay for that you didn’t have to pay for etc to get a decent ballpark figure.

10. Have I missed anything that I won’t have to pay for / will have to pay for, if so what?

11. Where is the engineer you used based?

to answer your insurance question, no I unfortunately I don’t have a policy that would cover the incident, besides the whole event was caught on the boatyards security cameras so no wriggle room either! My boat was up quite high (a stack of 4 railway sleepers under the keel roughly every meter along the boats length), so although the water came up the banks below the yard several meters past its usual high tide mark & a further 4ft in to the yard itself (enough to totally cover the engine) my boat, tucked away in the corner furthest from the sea, with a 3½ft draft did not actually float. It could have been much worse as many of the yachts in the in the yard floated off their supports & smashed into each other & were dumped onto the hard standing when the surge receded. Some where almost washed out to sea…

Sorry for the long list of questions Dee but if you could answer them I’d be extremely grateful.

Once again many thanks for your kind help

Regards

Tom

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