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Gray Motor Co., Det, MI - Ser. No. 2143

Old Marine Engine » Gray Motor Co - early 1 and 2 cylinder » Gray Motor Co., Det, MI - Ser. No. 2143 « Previous Next »

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Randy Ridderbush
Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Andrew or Anyone:

Could you please, if possible, date the serial
number of a Gray motor I am going to get. I will
send a photo description of the motor when I get it. The motor is pretty much a basket case. As
it needs carb, timer, exhaust, all the brass, etc.
I have a timer which may work? Andrew, will send you discs with images as soon as I can.

The bore is 3.5" stroke about 3.5" - I guess a
two to three horespower unit? And the piston is stuck.

Thanks.

Randy
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Randy Ridderbush
Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The number 2143 was cast into the engine.
The number off the flywheel is 3U 28714.
Which is the serial number?

Thanks again,
Randy
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richarddurgee
Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3H.p. Model U
Year of Mfg probably 1928


Gray
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bet if it is that late it didn't have that krice carb like your catalog shows.
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rustyal
Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 12:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Al in Fairbanks here ,I'm sending the engine to Randy , correct engine, but the waterpump is a piston pump run off of an ecentric that is part of the output flange at the rear of the engine.
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Randy Ridderbush
Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 01:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard:

Thanks for posting the photos.

Randy
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richarddurgee
Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Going back and reading the history of The Gray Motor Co.( volume 1 Engines Afloat-Grayson)Seems that the production of the two stroke engines ceased in 1927. So The serial number of Randy's eng above is inaccurate or inverted ?? maybe post those pics of the engine and a more accurate mfg date could be determined!
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Ernie
Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
Where have you seen in print that the year of mfr is in a Gray SN? Going by Gray engines that I have had I have never been very confident that the year is in the SN. I have gone by pics in ads with dates and the engine style as well as the variations in several styles. What I come up with makes me rather unshure of the 1st 2 numbers as the mfr date.
Comments anyone?
Hope you all had a good turkey day, and to the rest of you that don't observe turkey day sorry you had to work.
Ernie
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miro
Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ther serial number on my Gray is 11453. I got it from an old family cottage on Georgian Bay. It s a very remote and difficult to access place. The folks who had these cottages were quite sensitive to dumping stuff into the Bay - so the general rule was ( and still is) - what ever goes out to the island - stays and never comes back.
The heresay evidence is that the cottage was built pre-WW1. Further, the engine has a gib key ( with which I became intimately familiar during its removal) and not a taper / nut combination.
And while I agree with you that there is no documented evidence about the methods for the serial numbers, the use of the last 2 numbers of the year was common. The use of a letter designator ahead of the number, actually on top of the number in Gray's case, makes the unit unique in the production run.

The serial on mine certainly hand punched because it is so badly mis-aligned and crooked. As a practical matter, it makes sense that an apprentice who likely punched the numbers, had to have a simple method. The picture is a little blurry but I think you can make out how crookedly the serial number is punched.

miro

serial number
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richarddurgee
Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie: To answer your question, I have never seen any print or published information as to the year of mfg for GRAY engs being part of the serial no.
But when I think about it I've never seen any like info on any other mfgs of the old marine engs,with the exception of Dick Days GREAT work
with his beloved PALMER Engines !
I do have a file on many eng co's and take pertinent notes. My Gray file has one that says we discussed this subject on the old archives
here, and some concluded that the first two numbers " could indicate year made?
With the knowlege, written material, and actual engs that the readers of this site possess, we have a most powerful tool here to find and get better resolve to many of these issues! and also
a HISTORY catagory to put the info into,and slowly build The Marine Engine Data Bank list.
I have never researched Gray , although I have a few in my collection, but with my few notes I could date them fairly close,but haven't put the
serial numbers into the system to see if its reliable info,maybe we can do that here??
My info comes from Factory catalogs,Dick Days great experience combined with his insightful writings,and the Heritage Engine collection reports( certainly gives us an example to try to emulate), Stan Graysons wonderful and important books,city hall records, articles in boating books, mags,old newspapers and the ads in all of them, etc.
My findings put together I considered only a
Premise,a point to work from to continually add info to and adjust accordingly and hopefully to
get closer to the facts.
These are my Gray Motor Co. Notes used to date the older engs.
1. 1906 first Engs on market
1906 Gray
these were probably DuBrie engs
casting in ad and lever look like DuBrie??
2.1908 First actual Gray engs
Models R and S-one and two cyls 3-12 Hp.
3.1911-12 gib key to taper shaft and nut
4.1912 Model U added to line
5.1914-15 No oilers, model S not in catalog
water pumps still in front on timer shaft.
Illustration in prior message above
6.1916 ad shows waterpump aft, piston & eccentric
driven.

1916 Gray
7. 1917-18- 19 not much happening (WWI)
8. 1920 ads same as 1916
9. 1927 two cycle production stops ?


Now If we could knock this info around and hone it
a bit, we could then get serial nos and plug them in ??
MIRO your engine with gib key would be in 1908-1912(notes 2 & 3) and your serial no 11453 may
indicate 1911 year of mfg??
Randy's engine above, was a number on the flywheel
and probably not a good example, but has aft w/pump 1916 or later??
I went out in my garage and took serial no 10R11145 from an old ten Hp. It has an oiler,Gib key, front waterpump. it would seem to be 10hp-model R 1911??
How about some GRay info and serial nos and brief description of engines and see what happens??
Are we having fun yet ???
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Richard Day
Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dick my ears are burning. Thanks for the great comments. I hope others will pick up the torch on other engine makes. Perhaps Andrew could come up with a place where each engine with a serial number and a photo are listed. A list for each makers engines. eg US MOtors, Gray, Mianus, Lathrop. Ferro. Andrew could request each new engine inquiry add, where known the serial number etc so the list would be self generating. The price of admission so to speak would be to fill in the particulars so any of us could then go to the list and pick out where his engine falls in the listing. When Bill Fiege and I started out on this serial number search we understood from old time Palmer employees that they started out from the beginning with the year of manufacture as the last two digits. Unfortunately Bill with family comitments dropped out of the project but he certainly was part of the begining of the project.We now know that idea probably was not true. It looks like that series of numbers must have started about 1905 or 06. The frustrating thing about this is anomalies keep turning up. Only today Doug Teel told me he just bought a PW-27 serial number 4071361. 1961. But this engine had a Snow and Knabstadt reverse gear not a Paragon. Snow and Knabstadt went belly up about 1953 so what is one of their gear doing on a 1961 engine? Perhaps Palmer just cleaned out the attic and slapped it on a PW-27 to clear their inventory. Guess we will never know.
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Ernie
Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 08:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
My comments were NOT in the made to doubt your reasearch. My concern is that once something is in print is becomes history/fact. Gray engines are one of the most plentifull out there and I can't seem to date mine by SN. I have a NOS "U" with SN that starts with 23. From an ad in July 1921 issue of "Motor Boat" the pic is clearly of the later "U" with the water pump on the aft side of the cylinder. Mine has the water pump under the timer, making it an early "U". My very early Gray "Dubrie" style has 13 as it's first 2 numbers. By 1913 the Model "R" was well into production. (By the way thanks for posting the great early add. I had little info on mine)
I am only looking for information as close to correct as possible. So lets all get on here and see what we can pin down. By the way for those of you that have not met the honerable Mr. Durgee the first conversation between Richard and myself was something about being old farts.
So here is my Gray info:
Early DuBrie style SN 1396
Early "U" (waterpump on timer shaft) SN 23012024
This engine only has the SN on the Flywheel. However I am as sure as I can be that it is correct since it is an NOS engine. I am very sure it was never run untill I owned it.
Yes Richard this IS fun!
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Richard Day
Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Got a follow up on the 1961 PW-27 with the Snow and Knabstadt reverse gear. Turns out the printed matter Doug got with the engine was for the Snow & Knabstadt reverse gear but on closer examination of the PW-27 he realized it was actually Paragon OXKB. Glad that one is put to bed.
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Randy Ridderbush
Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard:

Thanks for posting the images of the Gray engines. The photos in which Al sent me of the Gray look almost exactky like the third photo of the ads which you posted. Is it a 1916 model U?
The intake is to the right of the flywheel on
my engine.

Thanks for all the info from everyone.

Randy
P.S. I am having Andrew post some pictures of my Maynard-Adams and Sandow(formerly thought to be
a Caille) The pictures are updates. Hope you like them.

It's amazing how much traffic can be generated
by one little engine. I am having fun.
TTFN (TA-TA-FOR NOW)
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richarddurgee
Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie: To Doubt the research is exactly the idea
here, with each of us limited from the lack of serial numbers on many engines and the lack of libraries of written info its collectively that we can remove the doubt.A couple of years ago I wanted to find mfg date of several old lathrops, talking to collectors,museums etc I began to doubt that anyone knew how to date one.
I have spent quite a bit of time and energy on the
task but am still able to only date Lathrops within 5 years or so.
Back to Gray,this is one of mine a Twin R Model.


1916 Gray


1916 Gray


Serial number 06D3649

Now I see a pattern in these numbers already.
The old 1906-1907 DuBrie style was another Co. and
probably used their own numbering system.
Gray probably started their system when they actually began mfging their own engs??
I have another note here that says that the last three numbers were production numbers??? so take them off
1.Randys eng 3U28714 = 8 for 1918

2.Miro's eng 11453 = 1 for 1911

3.richard eng 10R11145 = 1 for 1911

4.ernie old U 23012024 = 2 for 1912

5.richard R 06D3649 = 3 for 1913
Each physical property is correct for each engine
for that year.
Ernie possible one day to get pics of your early
eng maybe we could find out who was the maker of those first engs for Gray?
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J.B. Castagnos
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw a Gray single cylinder for sale with the timer in the back of the engine. Was this a Gray mfg engine or could it have been a DuBrie?
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miro
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The whole serial number on my Gray is S 11453. It has the 2 pump oiler driven by a metal belt off a pulley on the output shaft ( I even have the belt) , and the gear water pump is mounted on the front of the engine on the same shaft as the timer. There are 2 controls - timer and throttle. The number is punched into a machined flat on the cylinder. Above the serial number flat, cast into the cylinder, is what looks like a name tag with L&F. But the tag is part of the casting. Probably a reference to the foundry that made it.

miro
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

J.B.
Did the single say Gray on the flywheel,did it have a tag?? would really like pics of one of these early ones to determine for sure the maker.

Miro:
The R & S were the first production models by Gray, the S had been discontinued by 1914 ? possible to get pics ??

this is an ad 1908 first GRAY R model

1908Gray

this is catalog of 1914 GRAY model R.

1914cat Gray

one difference is on 1908 model the carb goes into crankcase base
1914 model carb goes into lower part of cylinder
casting??

Miro : where is carb base on your S Model??

Anyone with GRay engs- please post serial numbers
and pictures if possible.

Any 1908-1913 catalogs out there ??

THANKS
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J.B. Castagnos
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, it's been a while since I've seen it, it was a one cylinder. Seems there was a timer ring on the rear of the crank and a rod leading to a timer lever on the rear of the cylinder. I'm thinking about buying it, will try to get pictures either way.
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Ernie
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, The location of the carb seems to be related to the engine size. My 3hp "R" had the carb on the cylinder and my 4hp "R" had the carb on the base. From the pics I have seen the 6hp "R" also has it's carb on the base.
As to my early DuBrie style Gray I am sure it was made/designed by Stanley DuBrie. I have read somewhere that Stanley DuBrie moved to or had something to do with Gray in it's early years.
To furthur continue I at one time had a DuBrie and the old style Gray sitting side by side. They were virtually identical. I also have a Brooks that is just about identical to the early Gray/DuBrie. As soon as it warms up a bit I will get pics of them posted. It's +19 here today. I think the film in my digicam is frozen.
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie,
With your comparison of engines,I'm convinced
That the early Grays were made by DuBrie also.
We also can conclude that these early engs are
dated 1906 or 1907.
Now on your engine SN 1396 you don't suppose that 6 indicates-------????

J.B. if you could get the SN number from the one you mentioned above, it would be interesting to see if it ends in a 6 or 7 ??

NEED MORE GRAY SERIAL NUMBERS---- HELP!!!

Not only is this informative but it's FUN too !
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

if you look really hard at the 1908 R ad, you will see it has a gray motor co. carb, just like this engine has.
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

16R 13817 should be sn for above motor.
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

010s724

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Bill Schaller
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

124T20863
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sn# 06R2922
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

this serial number is hard to read, but I think it says "BOATANKOR".
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill,
Thanks for posting pictures and Serial numbers !
The singles have gib key or nut at flywheel??
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J.B. Castagnos
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, this engine is two states away, but I hope to see it over the winter.
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bill
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the one with serial number "boatankor" has a gib key, as do these two. The others shown above have nuts. My 3 doubles have nuts, I think. I haven't looked for a serial number on these two.
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is my best stuff on early gray 2 cycle engines. the first picture is the engine room of the yacht "grayling" with 3 40 hp 4 cylinder engines. the second picture is an ad with a write up of the 120 hp yacht "grayling"
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Nick Bettevy
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a couple of 2 cyl. Grays that I would like dated if possible. The green one is serial 23u11698 and the grey and black one is 26u14333. Thank you for all the help and thank you Andrew for a great marine engine site!
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andrew
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are Nick's photos described above:

1

2
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nick,
Hello its been awhile since we have talked engines.
Your grays are both U models

23u11698 = i = 1911 and the oldest U model yet!

26u14333 = 4 = 1914

Try again on posting the pictures we would all like to see these engines.
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I posted this earlier but it didn't come up ??

Bill Shallers Engines.

16R 13817 = 3 = 1913

010s 724 = ? = possibly missing a number?

124T 20863 = 0 - 1920

06R 2922 = 2 = 1912

Boatanchor = Billls testing us to see if were still concious THIS ONE AINT A GRAY !

the other two Grays with the gib keys will be
1908 or 09 or 10 or 11 Bill let us know what those numbers are and thanks for the posting.
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richarddurgee
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 12:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been thinking about Nicks green engine above and there is something about it that is different 23u 11698. although the date of mfg
indicates 1911, I was under the idea that this U engine came into production in 1912!
This eng has an older style timer and the waterpump is in the back.Nick possible to get a picture of the other side of your engine? and do you know something of its history that would explain differences ?
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Richard Day
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have two Grays in very good conditions that look just like the Silver one of Nicks. Seems to me that model was about 1922. Will have to look for some gray material I have somewhere. Mine have no serial numbers that I am aware of. What was Gray's practice as to where they put serial numbers? This model was very popular in the late 20s early 30s. Easy starting and reliable.
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Ernie
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dick,
Look on the side opposite the carb centered for and aft and top to bottom or the forward face of the flywheel rim.
Hope this helps
Ernie
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mechman@nexicom.net
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 09:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Goodday all. I read in the letters that Grey was still around in 1961--there will persons still alive that worked there guys--next project check the local directories (for 1961)of the town they were in at that time & check to see who the principals were & start phoneing I'm sure first hand information will surface! ! ! "All the best" Larry Healey
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richarddurgee
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1914 catalog

1914 Gray


Twin Model U-- waterpump on timer shaft in front.

1916 Gray

1916 Boat magazine AD

Twin Model U----waterpump aft piston/eccentric

Gray ceased two stroke production in 1927


How about If Nicks Green engine above 23u1168
is not 1911 but 1921 and has had the timer replaced with a non Gray one ??
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Richard Day
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I checked my two, Two cylinder Grays. The have no serial numbers that I can find. Ernie I looked very carefully where you suggested and found nothing. I think these engines are three port and just above the 1" inlet there appears to be a capital M in a circle. I take that to be the foundry trademark. Just below that appears 29101. It appears the same on both engines except on one the M in a circle is about half the size of the larger M. I took these marks to be casting dates rather than serial number. I wonder if they were still making this model in 1929??? I doubt they made many more after Oct. 1929 if that is a casting date. One engine has a Schebler Model D and the other a Krice. In Gray catalogs they recomended Krice. Why I don't know I have not had much luck with Krice compared to Schebler model Ds. Guess I don't have the right touch. There is a early Gray/Dubrie in the Mariners Museum in Norfolk will try to find the photo and put it on here.
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Nick Bettevy
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, Thank you for the dates and the helpful comments! You are absolutely right about the timer. When I got the engine in Portland this year it had a cast iron distributer off a ?? engine. I rebuilt a Lockwood/Nadler timer and installed it until I can find the correct timer. The green engine has AF cast into the block above the carb opening which I think is the foundry logo. Another difference is the green engine has crankcase access covers on both sides and the grey and black engine has no covers at all. I will attempt to post more pics. mvc-008s
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richarddurgee
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dick,
On your GRAYs Are the waterpumps on the timer shaft at front? or on the back of engine (piston type). Thanks
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Nick Bettevy
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mvc009s
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

richarddurgee, sorry about the boatankor picture, I have that engine listed as a gray because it has a gray flywheel on it. I will start another thread to see if anyone can tell me what it is. here are a few gray engines, sn???
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nick, I think I have seen that engine somewhere.
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Nick Bettevy
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 07:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep! That's it in the rough at Portland!
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nick, this is what I bought, instead. I need a casting for the water pump.
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richarddurgee
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nick, That information and pictures of your green eng are most helpful, the access covers are not on the earlier U models(like your silver 1914 model in picture above).the 1916 ad above of the
Single U model shows flate plate inspection covers
secured by bolts.
This is an Ad from a 1920 boating publication.
It shows the access covers (round threaded type)
as on your green engine, and tells us for sure that this one is 1921.(Very nice engine and Beautiful work on timer) THANKS

Gray1920
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richarddurgee
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill,
Thanks for all the posts! and about (boatankor) never need a sorry here! I am interested to find out who made it, very different w/pump?? Hope with all your GRAYS that this discussion has been helpful!

I have learned more about the two stroke GRAYS, different models, years of manufacture,hopefully decifered the Serial Number System, etc, here in the last few days with you guys on this web site,than I new collectively up to this time. THANKS and lets keep adding to it!

Pulling up Gray files, this is one I took at Clayton Museum a few months ago.

gray T Clayton
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miro
Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kinda busy in the last couple of days - but I will post a 1909 ad for an S model, and some more pictures of my Gray.
I found it interesting that some serial numbers have numbers ahead of the letter. On my engine, all that I have is S 11453.
Some really beautiful engines. The casting work on the cylinders is really really good - I suspect that it could not be done today.

And to Larry's point about the old guys passing on, one of the original emloyees of the DisPro factory ( Charlie Amey) passed away this week - just short of his 100 th birthday. Fortunately, there were a series of taped interviews with him, made about 20 years ago.
miro
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Nick
Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard Durgee, Thank you for pinning down the date on the green one to 1921. That ad you posted is a perfect match to my engine and also Bill's engine I believe. Bill, I hope yours wasn't stuck like mine was. It looks like a real good engine.
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rustyal
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is some more Gray, 16R7673 stamped on boss above poppet valve, and on flywheel(spoked) this engine was industrial/marine according to Meincke complete guide to stationary engines page 122. It has Schebler D, Oberdorfer water pump under the timer in front, Drip oilers, Gibb Key, one one of the spokes is also cast 02904. Also has governor that operates like a stationary engine with the flyweights mounted between the spokes. From the preceeding conversation is it safe to assume 1907? Have a Callie to date next when conversation gets to it. Can E-mail picture to someone, havent figured out how to post yet. Thanks
Al
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bill
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 07:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nick, no my engine looks great inside. here is my stationary gray, brass tag says 10R1..... I forgot to write it all down.
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miro
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 09:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the picture of the 1909 ad ( shows a Model S) . There is an Gray ad from 1910 on eBay, that shows a Model S. ( eBay 744686549). Also the engine pictures including a better shot of the serial number.
miro
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richarddurgee
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A catalog perfect GRAY in files (not My eng)
Don't Know serial number?


Gray
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andrew
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I sold this two cylinder Gray earlier this year. I can't find a record of the serial number, but I will ask the new owner...

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George Coates
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 09:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello all,
Somewhere I had read that the serial number is made of a digit for the year of manufacture and the remaining digits for the sequence number, but alas, I can not find that reference when it is needed.
I have a U that would use a pump like the one on the green twin above. The only stamped number on it is on the flywheel and not totally legible due to rust damage.
On the type S double there is a brass tag that shows 06D3642 HP 6D. This engine has a tapered shaft and nut flywheel fitment and the number 3642 is stamped in the boss on both cylinders, as Miro's.
The engine I believe to be 1906 has drip lubrication for the wrist pin and also to a slinger in the crankcase for the rod and a ball thrust bearing in the case for reverse. The water pump is an Oberdorffer driven by the verticle timer shaft. This shaft and all the pump parts have are match marked with the number 1 in an old font. The pump has no boss for a grease cup as does the one on the double. The cylinder casting has very delicate ears cast into it for mounting the timer and fuel quadrant, while later cylinders lack these ears and the quadrants have the mounting ears. The only number on the engine appears on the flywheel as 6652.
Hope this adds to the confusion.
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andrew
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

rustyal sent the following:


Quote:

Andrew: Here are the before as found and the after pictures of Gray 16R 7673
Thank you. Al



see pictures in the frame below...
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andrew
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1
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Laura Mathieu
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If anyone here would have any information about the following Gray I have pictures but I don't know how to load them here. It has 2 cylinders and has two name plates that say GRAY and both plates have a little plate below them that says 08121 - Any ideas, I could put up a picture if I could figure out how.
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andrew
Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Laura,
You can read the instructions for posting an image in the "formatting" section on the left. Photos must be under 50Kb in size.
Regards, Andrew
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richarddurgee
Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Laura: These are three pictures of your Gray that help indentify it.
It's a Gray Twin, Model T heavy duty commercial
Kerosene Marine Engine, probably 1918.
It has oilers for that late of an engine but kerosene engs could not mix oil like gasoline engs and used external oilers.
I don't believe this eng even used a carburetor,
you can see the fuel control valves in the pic below.
Great old engine !!


Gray Kero Serial


Gray Kero Heads


Gray Kero Fuel Control
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primetrucks
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 07:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi
just got my first gray marine engine can anyone tell me what year,size,model it is by this number 23u11664 one cyl.
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 09:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jamie,

Model "U" 1921, should have round inspection covers, piston water/pump on aft. 3 hp has a 3 1/2
inch stroke, Gray also made an 8 hp in this model and year. should look like this only single cyl?


G
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Robert
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gray Model T 17T20625 SN stamped on flywheel, not cylinders (1920?)

Gray Model S 2 cylinder 012S423 SN stamped on cylinders as per Miro's engine above - not found on flywheel (1912?)

Has anyone explained what the 2 or 3 digits in front of the letters stand for? If we knock off the last 3 digits and figure that the next two are the year, where does that leave the rest of the numbers? Was the factory numbering production of each model starting at 0 at the beginning of the year? Do we have the month and day in there somewhere? Does anyone have an original invoice with SN?!

Now is this timer that came with the Model S a Gray timer or something else? I see at least one engine above described as 1912 or earlier that has the later(?) pattern Gray timer...
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2
3
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is Gray serial no. I.D. and registry.
It was worked out on this web 2yrs ago.
>
The letters R,S,T,and U designate the eng model number.
Not sure yet what other Letters and Numbers indicate ??

1,G
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forgot that I can't post this list on here, its in HTML form and doesnt transfer.
>
I printed it, scanned it and will try it this way.
>
This is the old registry, it has since been added to and updated a bit.
>
As to dating timers, I dont have enough info yet to do it accurately, I am working at it. Mixers, carbs, oilers, reverse gears also ??

GrayID

GrayREG
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primetrucks
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 11:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

richard
my engine has only one inspection plate on the front ,and a geared water pump. it does have 3 1/2 bore. exhaust on rear and carb no side. where could i find a list and date code for gray engine.i am new to this site of engines.please help me in any way . thanks jamie
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richarddurgee
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jamie, If you e-mail me some photos of your engine, I'll post them here and give you what info about it that I can.

oceanblu@adelphia.net
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SCOTT
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
Here is a link to some pics of an old single cylinder I just picked up. Can anyone tell me anything about it??
Thanks
http://www.thegolfballshop.com/motor.htm
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SCOTT
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
Here is a link to some pics of an old single cylinder Gray Marine motor I just picked up. Can anyone tell me anything about it??
Thanks
http://www.thegolfballshop.com/motor.htm
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Scott
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
Here is a link to some photos of an old Gray Marine motor I just picked up. Can anyone tell me anything about it??
Thanks
http://www.thegolfballshop.com/motor.htm
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Ernie
Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually I think your engine started life as a Caille outboard. Take a look at the following pages.
http://caille.8m.com/liberty-single/photo-gallery/index.html
and
http://caille.8m.com/bantam/photo-gallery/index.html
Hope this helps
Ernie
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Ernie
Posted on Friday, May 14, 2004 - 08:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a pic of my Caille.
Text description
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robert
Senior Member
Username: robert

Post Number: 124
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 02:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With regard to the Gray numbering system: as stated elsewhere I have Gray Model S 2 cylinder serial number 012S423 which came with a Gray carburetor (and no other) of the type reportedly only fitted in 1907/8. I very much doubt this was not the original carb for this engine. Incidentally one cylinder is probably too far gone to repair, there is not exhaust manifold, water pump, control levers, timer & drive. As a result the brass inlet manifold, flywheel, one cylinder, pistons, rod, etc. are available if anyone needs them to complete an engine, also the crankcase(s) and crank, though the crank requires extensive restoration to use.
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bill s
Visitor
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

robert, do you have the bracket the oil pump sits on?
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robert
Senior Member
Username: robert

Post Number: 127
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill, I do not have that bracket. This is what I have: timer w/o cover (3 7/16" dia.) with shaft and bevel gear (3 9/16" dia., 27 teeth), 2x rods (one without cap), 2x pistons (4 3/4" bore) in good shape with rings, 1x repairable cylinder, crank with nut & brass oil throws, two cylinder crank case (2x singles bolted together?), flywheel, bronze double inlet manifold with check valves & springs, various rusty bolts etc. As you may have noticed I put an advert for this parts engine in the classifieds.
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charles g. reeves
New member
Username: auof

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

06/22/2007

I am looking for any information on an old outboard motor/engine made by the Blakely Engine Co. of Muskegon, Michigan. The name plate on the engine is marked Type "B" engine No. 142 (over) Blakely Engine Co. (over) Muskegon, Michigan (over) Patents Pending. Any information would be appreciated. Thank you.

Charles G. Reeves
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1498
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*

Look at this site !

Also look at The Gray Gearless I believe it was a Blakely !

http://www.rowboatmotors.com/

*

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