Gray Motor Co., Det, MI - Ser. No. 2143

Author Message   Randy Ridderbush Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 05:40 pm:        Andrew or Anyone: Could you please, if possible, date the serial number of a Gray motor I am going to get. I will send a photo description of the motor when I get it. The motor is pretty much a basket case. As it needs carb, timer, exhaust, all the brass, etc. I have a timer which may work? Andrew, will send you discs with images as soon as I can. The bore is 3.5" stroke about 3.5" - I guess a two to three horespower unit? And the piston is stuck. Thanks. Randy   Randy Ridderbush Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 08:55 pm:        The number 2143 was cast into the engine. The number off the flywheel is 3U 28714. Which is the serial number? Thanks again, Randy   richarddurgee Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 09:58 pm:        3H.p. Model U Year of Mfg probably 1928   Bill Schaller Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 10:34 pm:        I bet if it is that late it didn't have that krice carb like your catalog shows.   rustyal Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 12:59 am:        Al in Fairbanks here ,I'm sending the engine to Randy , correct engine, but the waterpump is a piston pump run off of an ecentric that is part of the output flange at the rear of the engine.   Randy Ridderbush Posted on Saturday, November 30, 2002 - 01:26 am:        Richard: Thanks for posting the photos. Randy   richarddurgee Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 12:36 pm:        Going back and reading the history of The Gray Motor Co.( volume 1 Engines Afloat-Grayson)Seems that the production of the two stroke engines ceased in 1927. So The serial number of Randy's eng above is inaccurate or inverted ?? maybe post those pics of the engine and a more accurate mfg date could be determined!   Ernie Posted on Sunday, December 01, 2002 - 08:32 pm:        Richard, Where have you seen in print that the year of mfr is in a Gray SN? Going by Gray engines that I have had I have never been very confident that the year is in the SN. I have gone by pics in ads with dates and the engine style as well as the variations in several styles. What I come up with makes me rather unshure of the 1st 2 numbers as the mfr date. Comments anyone? Hope you all had a good turkey day, and to the rest of you that don't observe turkey day sorry you had to work. Ernie   miro Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 10:23 am:        Ther serial number on my Gray is 11453. I got it from an old family cottage on Georgian Bay. It s a very remote and difficult to access place. The folks who had these cottages were quite sensitive to dumping stuff into the Bay - so the general rule was ( and still is) - what ever goes out to the island - stays and never comes back. The heresay evidence is that the cottage was built pre-WW1. Further, the engine has a gib key ( with which I became intimately familiar during its removal) and not a taper / nut combination. And while I agree with you that there is no documented evidence about the methods for the serial numbers, the use of the last 2 numbers of the year was common. The use of a letter designator ahead of the number, actually on top of the number in Gray's case, makes the unit unique in the production run. The serial on mine certainly hand punched because it is so badly mis-aligned and crooked. As a practical matter, it makes sense that an apprentice who likely punched the numbers, had to have a simple method. The picture is a little blurry but I think you can make out how crookedly the serial number is punched. miro   richarddurgee Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 03:37 pm:        Ernie: To answer your question, I have never seen any print or published information as to the year of mfg for GRAY engs being part of the serial no. But when I think about it I've never seen any like info on any other mfgs of the old marine engs,with the exception of Dick Days GREAT work with his beloved PALMER Engines ! I do have a file on many eng co's and take pertinent notes. My Gray file has one that says we discussed this subject on the old archives here, and some concluded that the first two numbers " could indicate year made? With the knowlege, written material, and actual engs that the readers of this site possess, we have a most powerful tool here to find and get better resolve to many of these issues! and also a HISTORY catagory to put the info into,and slowly build The Marine Engine Data Bank list. I have never researched Gray , although I have a few in my collection, but with my few notes I could date them fairly close,but haven't put the serial numbers into the system to see if its reliable info,maybe we can do that here?? My info comes from Factory catalogs,Dick Days great experience combined with his insightful writings,and the Heritage Engine collection reports( certainly gives us an example to try to emulate), Stan Graysons wonderful and important books,city hall records, articles in boating books, mags,old newspapers and the ads in all of them, etc. My findings put together I considered only a Premise,a point to work from to continually add info to and adjust accordingly and hopefully to get closer to the facts. These are my Gray Motor Co. Notes used to date the older engs. 1. 1906 first Engs on market these were probably DuBrie engs casting in ad and lever look like DuBrie?? 2.1908 First actual Gray engs Models R and S-one and two cyls 3-12 Hp. 3.1911-12 gib key to taper shaft and nut 4.1912 Model U added to line 5.1914-15 No oilers, model S not in catalog water pumps still in front on timer shaft. Illustration in prior message above 6.1916 ad shows waterpump aft, piston & eccentric driven. 7. 1917-18- 19 not much happening (WWI) 8. 1920 ads same as 1916 9. 1927 two cycle production stops ? Now If we could knock this info around and hone it a bit, we could then get serial nos and plug them in ?? MIRO your engine with gib key would be in 1908-1912(notes 2 & 3) and your serial no 11453 may indicate 1911 year of mfg?? Randy's engine above, was a number on the flywheel and probably not a good example, but has aft w/pump 1916 or later?? I went out in my garage and took serial no 10R11145 from an old ten Hp. It has an oiler,Gib key, front waterpump. it would seem to be 10hp-model R 1911?? How about some GRay info and serial nos and brief description of engines and see what happens?? Are we having fun yet ???   Richard Day Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 05:35 pm:        Dick my ears are burning. Thanks for the great comments. I hope others will pick up the torch on other engine makes. Perhaps Andrew could come up with a place where each engine with a serial number and a photo are listed. A list for each makers engines. eg US MOtors, Gray, Mianus, Lathrop. Ferro. Andrew could request each new engine inquiry add, where known the serial number etc so the list would be self generating. The price of admission so to speak would be to fill in the particulars so any of us could then go to the list and pick out where his engine falls in the listing. When Bill Fiege and I started out on this serial number search we understood from old time Palmer employees that they started out from the beginning with the year of manufacture as the last two digits. Unfortunately Bill with family comitments dropped out of the project but he certainly was part of the begining of the project.We now know that idea probably was not true. It looks like that series of numbers must have started about 1905 or 06. The frustrating thing about this is anomalies keep turning up. Only today Doug Teel told me he just bought a PW-27 serial number 4071361. 1961. But this engine had a Snow and Knabstadt reverse gear not a Paragon. Snow and Knabstadt went belly up about 1953 so what is one of their gear doing on a 1961 engine? Perhaps Palmer just cleaned out the attic and slapped it on a PW-27 to clear their inventory. Guess we will never know.   Ernie Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 08:11 pm:        Richard, My comments were NOT in the made to doubt your reasearch. My concern is that once something is in print is becomes history/fact. Gray engines are one of the most plentifull out there and I can't seem to date mine by SN. I have a NOS "U" with SN that starts with 23. From an ad in July 1921 issue of "Motor Boat" the pic is clearly of the later "U" with the water pump on the aft side of the cylinder. Mine has the water pump under the timer, making it an early "U". My very early Gray "Dubrie" style has 13 as it's first 2 numbers. By 1913 the Model "R" was well into production. (By the way thanks for posting the great early add. I had little info on mine) I am only looking for information as close to correct as possible. So lets all get on here and see what we can pin down. By the way for those of you that have not met the honerable Mr. Durgee the first conversation between Richard and myself was something about being old farts. So here is my Gray info: Early DuBrie style SN 1396 Early "U" (waterpump on timer shaft) SN 23012024 This engine only has the SN on the Flywheel. However I am as sure as I can be that it is correct since it is an NOS engine. I am very sure it was never run untill I owned it. Yes Richard this IS fun!   Richard Day Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 08:46 pm:        Got a follow up on the 1961 PW-27 with the Snow and Knabstadt reverse gear. Turns out the printed matter Doug got with the engine was for the Snow & Knabstadt reverse gear but on closer examination of the PW-27 he realized it was actually Paragon OXKB. Glad that one is put to bed.   Randy Ridderbush Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 09:32 pm:        Richard: Thanks for posting the images of the Gray engines. The photos in which Al sent me of the Gray look almost exactky like the third photo of the ads which you posted. Is it a 1916 model U? The intake is to the right of the flywheel on my engine. Thanks for all the info from everyone. Randy P.S. I am having Andrew post some pictures of my Maynard-Adams and Sandow(formerly thought to be a Caille) The pictures are updates. Hope you like them. It's amazing how much traffic can be generated by one little engine. I am having fun. TTFN (TA-TA-FOR NOW)   richarddurgee Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 09:35 pm:        Ernie: To Doubt the research is exactly the idea here, with each of us limited from the lack of serial numbers on many engines and the lack of libraries of written info its collectively that we can remove the doubt.A couple of years ago I wanted to find mfg date of several old lathrops, talking to collectors,museums etc I began to doubt that anyone knew how to date one. I have spent quite a bit of time and energy on the task but am still able to only date Lathrops within 5 years or so. Back to Gray,this is one of mine a Twin R Model. Serial number 06D3649 Now I see a pattern in these numbers already. The old 1906-1907 DuBrie style was another Co. and probably used their own numbering system. Gray probably started their system when they actually began mfging their own engs?? I have another note here that says that the last three numbers were production numbers??? so take them off 1.Randys eng 3U28714 = 8 for 1918 2.Miro's eng 11453 = 1 for 1911 3.richard eng 10R11145 = 1 for 1911 4.ernie old U 23012024 = 2 for 1912 5.richard R 06D3649 = 3 for 1913 Each physical property is correct for each engine for that year. Ernie possible one day to get pics of your early eng maybe we could find out who was the maker of those first engs for Gray?   J.B. Castagnos Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:13 am:        I saw a Gray single cylinder for sale with the timer in the back of the engine. Was this a Gray mfg engine or could it have been a DuBrie?   miro Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:22 am:        The whole serial number on my Gray is S 11453. It has the 2 pump oiler driven by a metal belt off a pulley on the output shaft ( I even have the belt) , and the gear water pump is mounted on the front of the engine on the same shaft as the timer. There are 2 controls - timer and throttle. The number is punched into a machined flat on the cylinder. Above the serial number flat, cast into the cylinder, is what looks like a name tag with L&F. But the tag is part of the casting. Probably a reference to the foundry that made it. miro   richarddurgee Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:16 am:        J.B. Did the single say Gray on the flywheel,did it have a tag?? would really like pics of one of these early ones to determine for sure the maker. Miro: The R & S were the first production models by Gray, the S had been discontinued by 1914 ? possible to get pics ?? this is an ad 1908 first GRAY R model this is catalog of 1914 GRAY model R. one difference is on 1908 model the carb goes into crankcase base 1914 model carb goes into lower part of cylinder casting?? Miro : where is carb base on your S Model?? Anyone with GRay engs- please post serial numbers and pictures if possible. Any 1908-1913 catalogs out there ?? THANKS   J.B. Castagnos Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 01:40 pm:        Richard, it's been a while since I've seen it, it was a one cylinder. Seems there was a timer ring on the rear of the crank and a rod leading to a timer lever on the rear of the cylinder. I'm thinking about buying it, will try to get pictures either way.   Ernie Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:51 pm:        Richard, The location of the carb seems to be related to the engine size. My 3hp "R" had the carb on the cylinder and my 4hp "R" had the carb on the base. From the pics I have seen the 6hp "R" also has it's carb on the base. As to my early DuBrie style Gray I am sure it was made/designed by Stanley DuBrie. I have read somewhere that Stanley DuBrie moved to or had something to do with Gray in it's early years. To furthur continue I at one time had a DuBrie and the old style Gray sitting side by side. They were virtually identical. I also have a Brooks that is just about identical to the early Gray/DuBrie. As soon as it warms up a bit I will get pics of them posted. It's +19 here today. I think the film in my digicam is frozen.   richarddurgee Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 05:41 pm:        Ernie, With your comparison of engines,I'm convinced That the early Grays were made by DuBrie also. We also can conclude that these early engs are dated 1906 or 1907. Now on your engine SN 1396 you don't suppose that 6 indicates-------???? J.B. if you could get the SN number from the one you mentioned above, it would be interesting to see if it ends in a 6 or 7 ?? NEED MORE GRAY SERIAL NUMBERS---- HELP!!! Not only is this informative but it's FUN too !   Bill Schaller Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:33 pm:        if you look really hard at the 1908 R ad, you will see it has a gray motor co. carb, just like this engine has.   Bill Schaller Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:37 pm:        16R 13817 should be sn for above motor.   Bill Schaller Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:38 pm:        010s724   Bill Schaller Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:40 pm:        124T20863   Bill Schaller Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:45 pm:        sn# 06R2922   Bill Schaller Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 07:50 pm:        this serial number is hard to read, but I think it says "BOATANKOR".   richarddurgee Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 08:08 pm:        Bill, Thanks for posting pictures and Serial numbers ! The singles have gib key or nut at flywheel??   J.B. Castagnos Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 08:56 pm:        Richard, this engine is two states away, but I hope to see it over the winter.   bill Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:36 pm:        the one with serial number "boatankor" has a gib key, as do these two. The others shown above have nuts. My 3 doubles have nuts, I think. I haven't looked for a serial number on these two.   Bill Schaller Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:02 pm:        Here is my best stuff on early gray 2 cycle engines. the first picture is the engine room of the yacht "grayling" with 3 40 hp 4 cylinder engines. the second picture is an ad with a write up of the 120 hp yacht "grayling"   Nick Bettevy Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 10:07 pm:        I have a couple of 2 cyl. Grays that I would like dated if possible. The green one is serial 23u11698 and the grey and black one is 26u14333. Thank you for all the help and thank you Andrew for a great marine engine site!   andrew Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:06 pm: