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Just found this Gray 2 cycle, three p...

Old Marine Engine » Gray Motor Co - early 1 and 2 cylinder » Just found this Gray 2 cycle, three port, is it early or late? « Previous Next »

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Robert
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 09:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello all, just turned up this Grey on one of the islands here. Can't decide if is is early or late, but compared to the local product it is quite a Cadillac. What's more it is FWC and turns free with decent compression, what a change from the usual salty old dogs we see in the Pacific Northwest. Serial number is 05205. Has an "F" in circle logo above the serial number so perhaps that is the model? Any information would be appreciated on age, timer configuration, original colours, operating instructions etc. This one just jumped to the head of the restoration queue!
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richarddurgee
Posted on Thursday, February 26, 2004 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gray Motor Co. sold two stroke engs from 1906 to 1927.

If you discard the last three serial numbers,the fourth (your serial no. is a 5) thats the year it was mfg'd', that would make yours a 1915 or 1925.
If the waterpump is on the shaft with the timer on flywheel side of eng its 1915.
If waterpump is on rear of eng its 1925!
Maybe send us a picture, if you have difficulty putting on this web site- E-mail them to me I'll
post them here and also list your eng on the Gray engine registry!

oceanblu@adelphia.net
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Robert
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,

Thank you very much. I sent Andrew some photos to add to the message as I couldn't see how to do it...When Andrew has time, I'm sure they will appear here ;-) The water pump is belt driven off the shaft behind the cylinder, so I guess 1925 it is. A respectable age. Now, what did the timer look like? What sort of coil was stock with these, or do we know?
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Ernie
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert,
You can always send photos to me if need be. I know Andrew is quite busy at times. Just make sure it says "engine pics" in the subject line.
Hope this helps
Ernie
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richarddurgee
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert

Gray didn't make a belt driven waterpump on it's two stroke engs, but the "S" model had a mechanical oil pump on the back that was belt driven.Could the F above the serial no. be an S ??
this S pic shows both pumps and timer

Grayp
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andrew
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are Roberts pictures:

1

2

3

4
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Ernie
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That looks like a 3hp model "R" I have one like it. The same oiler and all.
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Ernie
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The "rusty pics are a Gray Model "T"
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,

can you post a photo of the coil on your gray? or, what type is it.
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Robert.
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you very much for the help gentlemen. So that "F" logo above the serial means nothing? Actually, the engine is much less rusty than it looks! I see now where those two Detroit belt drive oilers I have came from, if any Gray owners find themselves in need of one... and I see about the water pump: what I took to be a belt shroud is obviously a gear shroud. Can anyone help with timer or coil info, or a photo of the correct serial number plate? Sorry about the dingy photos, will do better shortly.
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Robert.
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill, there was no coil with it. I'm just wondering if we know what would have been on it originally? Was the timer a Gray in-house product or did they use Cuno or Bemus? (doesn't look like it from the photos above)
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Ernie
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert,
I have some very good pics of at least one real nice "T" like yours. However I have to find them. I will post them as soon as I do.
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Robert
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Ernie, I'm looking forward to them! Was this one of their fancier/better models? It seems to have quite a few features one doesn't often find.
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dick
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 03:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert, I could use one of those belt-drive oilers for my Gray if you were willing to part wth it, or haven't already gotten rid of it. You can let me know what you are thinking for it off-line at rbriggs@smith.edu.

Thanks, Dick
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unlikely it had a serial number plate. Only about 5 % of the grays I have seen had one.
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am in need of an oiler too, so if you want to get rid of the second one, let me know.
If you need any specific pictures, catalog cuts, etc, say the word, I have the above T out in the shed, and the S that the double oiler and name tag pics are from, too. Catalog pics, too, but they would take awhile to dig out. The t was the highest quality 2 stroke from gray, quite a bit more fancy than the other models.

Bill Schaller
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bill schaller
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, where did you find that serial number? it should be on the face of the flywheel, or else on a flat boss on the engine block. I am suprised it does not have a letter in the serial number
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Ernie
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are pics of an engine that was for sale on the "net" a while back. They were sent to me by a gent that was considering buying it. Not sure if he bought it or even who had it for sale. If these pics are yours and you have a concern with them being here please let me know.
The valve near the exhaust was to regulate how much water went into the exhaust vs how much went over board. If you need more detail on any part I have a neighbor with a real nice one and could most likely get additional pics for you.
Hope this helps
Ernie

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Ernie
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert,
The Gray "T" seemed to be (my assumption) from their ads a stronger easier to maintain/replace parts workboat engine. I have seen an add somewhere that shows removing a piston and rod by just removing the head and side cover. The Gray "T" was also a true 2/3 port engine. The only other true 2/3 port engines that I have seen are Erd's. A 2/3 port engine has both a check valve and a piston port. Kind of like an Acadia with it's 3rd port. However the Acadias did not have a carb/mixer attached to it.
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richarddurgee
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill,

the photo of the Gray with the coil is a file photo,i,ve tried blowing it up to read the tag but it blurs ?? I,ll try to find out who made these coils.
This is a catalog about 1914.

Graycoil
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richarddurgee
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1915 Gray single Model "T"


Gray T
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richarddurgee
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

7 HP model T


Gray 7
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richarddurgee
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forgot to mention that Model T always had waterpump on rear of engine and first year of mfg was 1914.
Robert if your serial no is accurate the " F " is probably a "T" and its a 1915.
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Robert
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 09:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gentlemen, thank you all again. Here are some better pics post pressure washing. Is that a Krice carb or Kingston? I have the remains of a 3/4" Schebler D attached I can see. Can we be sure that is not original? (Obviously the pieces of pipe are not) It looks like I need a timer, coil, carb and the grease cups for the mains. I suspect the engine might have been pulled when the outlet/inlet nipple on top of the water pump broke off - I can see the remains of the soft solder where a repair was attempted. I have a four feed and a two feed Detroit that are surplus to requirements. Will post some photos under the Miscellaneous heading shortly. Will trade for parts for this Gray I guess.
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2
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5
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Robert.
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
Thanks very much for looking out all that info, but from what you said farther up this string about the position of the water pump, I understood my engine must be a 1925, or is it impossible to tell? I see those excellent illustrations from the 1915 catalogue show a rear position for the pump. Am I missing something or does this engine have no direct lubrication to wrist pin, unlike most early two cycles? There is what looks like a small priming cup on the water pump in the catalogue illustrations, is this an oil cup to lubricate or for priming the pump? (seems doubtful) Questions, questions...
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that is not the serial number. that is a casting number. the serial number is on the flywheel face.
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Bill Schaller
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 11:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Krice was the standard carb most years, with the Schebler being an option. looks like I need to find a water pump. I forgot about that on my T. In fact I think I need two water pumps. what happened to the Gray section on the home/history page? I thought I had a couple of pictures of a gray 2 cylinder model T there.
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richarddurgee
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A few yrs back we worked out a system here on this web site to use Gray serial numbers and mechanical differences to put an accurate mfg date on two stroke engs.since that time I have found that the Model "T" is an exception to the rules and I need to amend the original treatise.

Disregard discussion about your eng prior to us being able to see pictures of it, that would apply to most all other Gray 2 cycle engs.

The model T was the only Gray 2 cycle eng with a removable head,it had many other state of the art innovations, one being that it was designed when the mixing of oil and gasoline was discoverd and accepted by most makers, wrist pin and rest of eng oiled with gas mixture.

The water pump was always on the rear of the T and I know of very few changes to this eng while in production. I believe that 1915 is probably the mfg date of your eng , will look into it but I don't believe this model was produced in 1925 ???


Cups on waterpump were grease cups to lube it !

look for info on greases by clicking on the keyword search at left and type in grease.
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Robert
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 01:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill, You are absolutely right. Had a good look at the flywheel and there it is on the front face of the rim: 17T20625 Does that make it a 1920 engine??
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richarddurgee
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert, Thanks to Bill Schallers knowlege of Gray engs You've got the serial no. and it's a 1920.


Another note : While digging for info on ernies new engs I came across this ad--- It changes the
initial production date of The Gray model " T "
back a few yrs this is a 1911 ad and it appears that the engine could have been made even earlier,
maybe 1910?? I just know everyone is more than excited by this new info ???


Gray T 1911
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Richard Day
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey guys just don't make the mistake of using the mechanical oilers instead of 40:1 mix in the fuel. Put them on the engines and make them look to the casual observer they are in use but don't risk your relic to the vagaries of drip oilers.
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Robert.
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks again, Bill, Ernie & Richard for all thet trouble you took to pass on that information. Much appreciated. I have a few more questions if anyone would care to humour me a little more:

1. Did Gray make the timers, or someone else?
2. What was/were the factory colour(s)? (It has the remains of battleship grey on the flywheel and black on the rest)
3. What make of grease cups were used for the mains?
4. How was the cylinder head 'cap' finished? It looks glossy in the catalogue illustrations.
5. Were the detents in the spark and throttle levers a pointer or a captive ball? Mine are missing or rusted away.
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Ernie
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 08:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1, Timers, I think they made their own. I just might have one. If so we can trade something.
2, My early Gray is black (including the flywheel)and it has never been painted. I fact I don't think any of the old Gray engines were actually gray.
3, I will try to get ahold of my neighbor to see what is on it for original grease cups. I hope he isn't in Florida.
4, No clue
5, I will also look at his spark and throttle levers and let you know.
Hope this helps
Ernie
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Ernie
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are pics of the neighbors engine. The grease cups appear to be original and are large Lunkhiemer "T" handle type. Can't tell from the pic how the detents were. However my other Gray/s have a ball and spring in a hole in the handle.
Hope this helps
Ernie

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Robert
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 01:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, who should pull up a few doors down the street but the soda blast guy taking the paint off the neighbor's house. So tomorrow we wheel the Gray and a few other misc. bits down there for a "blast for the past". Will post some photos of the results if the camera cooperates. (We'll see if we can get the free wooden boat done too!)

I suppose the kiss of death (or re-babbiting)for these 2 cycles is worn and therefore leaky main bearings(?) Would anyone care to comment on diagnosing this condition?
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Robert
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When the camera comes back from repair will post some photos of the soda blast effect. I see that on page 101 of Engines Afloat Vol. 1. Grayson says "By the time the US entered WWI, the only two cycle offered by Gray was the Model U, available in one and two cylinder versions of three to 11 horsepower". That does not fit with the timelines given above. Comments??
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richarddurgee
Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Robert, All my notes indicate that Grays two cycle production was to cease in 1925, but 1927 was last year the U was actually made. look on page 104 bottom paragraph same book as you mentioned above, there is other reference to this date I would have to research it again. Anyone know of a Gray two cycle after 1927 ??
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JRolfe
Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Glad to find this forum. I have Gray #05143 and I think it is in decent shape, but needs some TLC. If I can get the 3 year old digital camera to work I will take pictures of the 99 year old Gray that I am SURE can be made to work. It has the commutator, carburator, but I think the oiler is gone. Spark plug is there but broken. This engine was taken out of service in 1927 as a generator motor. It charged batteries for a 12 volt system. It was reputedly run on Acetiline. Has never been stored outside, even the wood skids are still sound and the clutch is still mounted. I live in Louisiana - so there is rust everywhere. I hope to get it running for it's 100th birthday. It will be my first project. HELP
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Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert

Post Number: 327
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 04:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Model T twin running (missing the head caps): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdRlZ2SNGhQ&feature=related
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Paul Gray
Senior Member
Username: paulgray

Post Number: 71
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Monday, January 11, 2010 - 06:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The circle with the F in it.... I have seen that on another engine I own. Maybe a foundry mark??

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