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Reversing pitch prop questions...

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newinertia
New member
Username: newinertia

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Im from the midwest, therefor ignorant of all things nautical... well not really. I have been designing a classic looking boat that I would like to build and install a CPP on, but would like to find the simplest, and most reliable. I am handy with a lathe and there is a foundry locally, so I would like to build from scratch from silicon bronze. I have studied numerous patents from 1903 to 1983, and really dont know what is PROVEN in the maritime community, and what will hold up to a large torque load at low RPM. Id really like some input on this, and if you let me duplicate your system, Ill send you duplicate spares for free!
Skip- newinertia@yahoo.com
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 399
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 09:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While I agree that the challenge of pattern making, casting and machining a reversing prop is stimulating, you might be wise to consider the use of a Kitchen rudder.
Elsewhere on the OME Discussion board, you'll find a good deal of info about it.
And frankly, it's more efficient and much more fun.

I some pictures of a reversing prop mechanism, and it looks fragile to me. The reason that I have the pictures, is that the prop mechanism had to be re-built because of the wear. This was its second re-build.

miro
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newinertia
New member
Username: newinertia

Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks miro- Is that a Dippy in your pic? I have a copy of 'The Greatest Little Motorboat Afloat'
the story of the Dispro - Still read it once a year! I do understand your reasoning, but there were and are MANY models of the C.P.P.(controllable pitch propeller) made, and they are still the prop of choice on larger fishing boats, BUT modern systems cost $8,000 for a small ten to twenty horse system. Kasten Marine recomends them for all their boats. They really are robust with a shoe and skeg setup- the reason I want one is for efficiency, and low speed manovering, I cruise the Muddy Mo here in Kansas City, and the current is swift. I am not in any way trying to change your mind about what is ideal for you, but it is ideal for me. I have 45 or so original copies of patent drawings for this type of system, but patents dont tell you how many units were sold, what the drawbacks were to each model, or wich one is the one everyone swears by! That is why I joined this group, research and the very valuable input from you folks that have been there, and done that.
I do apreciate the Kitchen Rudder design, but it is not as efficient as the CPP. I now am using a 17 HP KOHLER vertical shaft mated by dual b section belt to the lower unit of a Johnson 50- see pic. With this, I get 36 mpg at 5.5 knts.at 880 rpm and have over 1000 miles of cruising on it in a year. total cost for the boat, electrical system, engine, drive sys, and Harley exhaust is $1000. I will be building my next boat nicer, but my little 'Sardine' just keeps amazing me with its feats of durability, and economy.
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newinertia
New member
Username: newinertia

Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 18, 2009 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Catalina 15 converted to motorboat
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boatpaul
Member
Username: boatpaul

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

newinertia,CP wheels have their place,but on inland waterways with high levels of silt, their life would be short.In the best of conditions they are maintenance intensive and lubricants need to be enviromentally friendly.It would definitely be a great machineshop project though.
Goodluck!
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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller

Post Number: 304
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

if I was going to make one, I would make a Roper.

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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 400
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 08:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yup - that is a DisPro in the picture.
Since you are familiar with the book, the back cover has a collage of 12 pictures - 6 of them are of my DisPro - Emily.
It is also the only DisPro in the recent wooden boat book - Wood and Glory.

BAck to your prop question - I haven't seen variable pitch props for on small boats except at antique marine flea markets.
And I hasten to add, I haven't seen many Kitchen rudders either.
Could it be that most folks just give a darn and put up with inefficiency and lack of maneuverability? If their boat goes straight and fast - that's all they care about .
I'll see if I can get some of the guys I know to take apart their prop system and let me take some pictures. Now that the cold weather is setting in, most boats around here are out of the water.
miro
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newinertia
Member
Username: newinertia

Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks miro- All Good Stuff! Thank you for maintaining Emily- I hope she can be enjoyed for generations to come. If you ever come across a dippy housing, Id like to have it.
Skip
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newinertia
Member
Username: newinertia

Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill- Why do you like the Roper design? It looks interesting, but maybe overcomplicated with four blades? Thank you for posting it, do you know the patent #?
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steamroy
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Username: steamroy

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 05:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi there,
I might have something that would interest you. It is a 20 in dia , 3 blade affair.
It is now at the Granenhurst Grace and Speed Museum, so it might be a while before I can get at it again.
Roy
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newinertia
Member
Username: newinertia

Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Friday, October 23, 2009 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Roy- Would definately be interested in more info-
Do you have any model or mfg. info on it? What motor was it behind? 20" 3-blade would be nice for a Listeroid system- (ahem)....non-commercial of course!
The Boat Im designing is a Doosey- If your interested. I really appreciate you guys having an interest.
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bgoss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 131
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, October 25, 2009 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry to mess with this thread, but it's good to hear that you're back in the mix Roy.
Blair
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newinertia
Member
Username: newinertia

Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Monday, October 26, 2009 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Roy- Thanks for the info on Granenhurst Grace and Speed Museum- I went to the website, what a great thing for the preservation of all things nautical! I really appreciate it, and thanks for helping by preserving and donating, we will all benefit from that! As an inventor, one of my most prized posessions are a complete set of Popular Mechanics from 1938 to 1980, You can never come up with anything new, unless you know what has already been made! Keep on preserving.
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miro
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Username: miro

Post Number: 405
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, November 01, 2009 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I tried to upload a video of SteamRoy's variable pitch propeller to You Tube, but didn't seem to work - and I tried to email you the video but my ISP indicated the file was too big.
miro
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 489
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 02:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was a local company that made a boat called the Waymaker, used a Subaru engine mounted over the shaft with multiple belts driving the prop shaft. This arrangement allowed the front of the propshaft to be open. The control for the variable pitch prop came out of the front, attached to a control lever by a thrust bearing. He made his variable pitch props out of stainless, had a patent on the hub that made it weedless, the blades were mounted into a machined step that didn't allow the weeds to catch on it. The advantage of the prop is that it would remain weedless in forward or reverse because it always rotated the same way.
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miro
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 406
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Success with You Tube :-}
Here's the link to the prop at the Gravenhurst Grace and Speed Museum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHcT8l8hCE0&feature=player_embedded

miro
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searcher
Senior Member
Username: searcher

Post Number: 367
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 08:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very nicely done demo. Thanks.
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newinertia
Member
Username: newinertia

Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miro, Thank You! Great video! Just seeing it have the gears in my head turning, SteamRoy- That is one really great display! I am thinking this is the model I would like to duplicate. It is awesome! I hope you get better soon, just heard about the wreck. Best wishes and prayers.
Skip
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bgoss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 132
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, November 02, 2009 - 07:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for putting the effort into that Miro. How many words is a video worth?
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silverghost
Member
Username: silverghost

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2011 - 05:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a complete old Antique reversing & adjustible speed propeller & shaft/control tube sleave & control lever setup in a large Antique booth at Renningers Antique Market Kutztown PA.
It appears complete and in very good shape. Made of bronze or brass.
Similar to, but not exactly like, the "Roper" unit pictured in the old advert in the post above.
Really Neat set-up !
I never saw another set-up like it~
It sits on the floor in the Antique Dealer's booth.
Do a web search for Renningers Antique Market & Mall. Kutztown Pa.

Brad Hunter
Just outside Philadelphia
1 215 947 4676
silverghost1926@msn.com
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silverghost
Member
Username: silverghost

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2011 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I neglected to mention that the "Antique" dealer was asking $300. for this old adjustible prop set-up.
It is a single two blade prop unit where the outer tube over the prop-shaft itself controls the prop's pitch & reversing .
The center shaft itelf drives the prop.
There is also a packing-nut and shaft log round flange, with packing gland nut that seals this system in the boat, as well as the complete adjustibe control lever assembly.There is also an engine coupling on the center propshaft.

This would be a very neat set-up for a launch restoraton or reproduction project.
Some collector in this Pa. area should snap it up.
The "Antique" dealer had no idea exactly what it was,nor how it was actually used. Because it had a propeller he did know it was once used on an old boat~~~that's it.
I have NO connection myself to this drive set-up or the "Antique" dealer.
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silverghost
Member
Username: silverghost

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2011 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I received several calls about this prop set-up.
Renningers is a large Farmer's & Antique Market & Mall in Kutztown Pa.
The Antique Mall is open on Saturdays.
I am sorry I do not know the "antique" dealer's name, phone, or contact info, nor the booth number.
It is on the extreme right isle on the right side of this market.
Sadly~I should have gotten more detailed information for the forum readers here.
I posted here as an after-thought after reading this thread.
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silverghost
Member
Username: silverghost

Post Number: 19
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 15, 2011 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One forum memmber/reader here Bill M. has been trying to buy this prop set-up by long distance phone calls~~~
With NO luck~so far.
I will try to go back to this Antique market next Saturday and actually purchase this prop & drive for this forum member Bill. IF it has not already been sold ?
I do NOT wish to make ANY money on this transaction.
Bill wants this set-up as he has several vintage launch projects.
I hope this works-out for everyone involved.
Stay Tuned~

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