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Palmer P60 Prop

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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 08:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are looking for better performing prop for our Columbia 34. We have a Palmer P60 with the typical 2 blade prop. Has anyone had any luck with certain props over others? Thanks.
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Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails

Post Number: 47
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 18, 2008 - 09:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is your engine direct drive? If so, you should find that the Indigo and CDI props designed for the A4 work well.

I have used the CDI, and another person I trust has used the Indigo. I think I give a slight nod to the Indigo, as it is bronze and is smoother. But, I think the CDI will have a little less drag under sail.

If it's geared, I'd just call up a reputable prop shop like H&H propeller. If it's not geared they won't have a clue how to deal with it.

Rich
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Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie

Post Number: 208
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two bladed props are a compromise. They are designed to create less drag for sailing. If you are willing to sacrifice a small bit of sailing performance to achieve better efficiency while motoring, then get a 3 bladed prop.
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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 12
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really don't want to give up any speed while sailing just looking for something better than the prop we have. I was looking at the CDI perfect pitch prop, its a 2 blade they say its better but there the ones selling it as well.

Scott
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Richard Shapiro
Advanced Member
Username: mainesails

Post Number: 50
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To elaborate a bit more than I had time for in my last post, the CDI increases wot RPM by about 300, increases both forward and reverse thrust considerably, and increases top speed noticably.

I noticed no difference in sailing speed between the CDI and my old 2 blade "sailor".

The downside is that it requires some very specific antifouling paint and it does vibrate a bit more than a 2 blade "sailor" prop.

~~~~~

The 3 blade Indigo substantially increases thrust and speed, both in forward and reverse. It is definitely smoother than the CDI, and, being bronze, doesn't require antifouling paint. I don't know if it increases wot RPM.

I don't know if there is a slight speed loss, but, if so, it won't be too bad because of the very small diameter of the prop.

Either would be a FAR better choice than the "sailor" prop. Now that I have the CDI, I'd NEVER go back to the "sailor" but I'm tempted to try the Indigo.
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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 13
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Friday, March 21, 2008 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What do you mean by the "sailor prop". We are in freshwater so i don't think the antifouling paint is needed really. I was just looking at the Indigo prop and it talks about being for direct direct drive. Our palmer is a v-drive and I assume its geared? the cost is really no diffrent CDI-250 and Indigo-310. I don't like the idea of more vibration, but don't really feel there is alot of vibration now. The idea behind the CDI that it flexs as the rpm goes up right and makes a better pitch for that rpm and speed?

Scott
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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 14
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 09:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I checked over the weekend and our Palmer is geared down for every 1 turn of the flywheel the prop shaft turns 1/2 turn. Does that change my prop selections?
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Richard Shapiro
Senior Member
Username: mainesails

Post Number: 54
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Absolutely!

The Indigo and CDI props are made for UNGEARED P60 and A4 engines. With a geared engine, they won't move the boat 3 knots!

Take the following information to a reputable prop shop like H&H propeller:

Boat Info:
Current prop diameter, pitch and type.
Shaft Diameter
Shaft taper (if nonstandard)
Current RPM at full throttle in forward gear (after a few seconds to let the boat accelerate).
Current clearance between prop tip and hull.

Engine Info:
Max RPM: 3000
Max HP: 22

Ask them what to do. You'll get a great prop.
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Richard Shapiro
Senior Member
Username: mainesails

Post Number: 55
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also ... prop rotation (presumably left hand?)
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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 15
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for all the info, I found this on CDI's website shows the Palmer as 2:1 http://www.sailcdi.com/ppmain.htm

Scott
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Richard Shapiro
Senior Member
Username: mainesails

Post Number: 56
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That would work for you! i was referring to the 12x7 they sell for ungeared Palmers (which I own). I forgot that they make other sizes. Sorry about that.

Best power and smoothness, but you lose a little sailing speed: bronze 3 blade

Best sailing with better power than you have and second best smoothness: MAXPROP

Good sailing with better power than you have - a little more vibration (it's not bad, but on my boat it makes my stove buzz - that's my only complaint. The prop works great): CDI 12/11

Good luck!
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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 16
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You forgot to add that the Max Prop was $2000-$3000 dollars..ha ha maybe i should buy 2 of them so I am a spare.

I am a bit worried about the vibration but sounds like your not to worried. Our current prop seems fairly smooth.

next question I would like the change the fluid in the v-drive this year and am wondering how do i check the level of the fluid. here is a picture of our motor you can see the transmission at the bottom of the photo.

[IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/PaperboyRacing/Sailboat%20Motor/DSC02911.jp g[/IMG]
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Richard Shapiro
Senior Member
Username: mainesails

Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didn't forget (grin). What's a boat, anyway but an excuse to spend money.

Seriously, the increase in vibration I experienced is slight, but it is just enough to make the knobs on my stove rattle, which drives me bonkers. If not for that, I wouldn't mind.

A regular 3 blade bronze prop would probably run you around $300-$350. My other boat has a 3 blade with very slim blades on it. It works beautifully.

By the way, from the photo, I'd guess you would use a right hand prop.

~~~~~

The manual discusses the reduction gear, but not the v-drive.

According to the manual, the reduction gear gets its oil from the reverse gear and needs no seperate maintenance unless water gets into the oil, in which case you flush it until the oil stays clear.

If you open up the access ports, you may find that the v-drive also gets its oil from the reverse gear, in which case, you'd want to try to drain the oil from the lowest point you can access, then fill the reverse gear as usual to 1" below the tailshaft at the rear of the clutch, then you're home free.

If not, I don't have any information for you, but I can take a slightly educated guess or two.

If there is a fill hole which is not at the top, then I'd fill it with as much as it will take (just like an auto differential).

Otherwise, I'd consider draining it into a measured container and adding the same amount of oil.

Since the v-drive contains nothing but a constantly meshed set of gears, I'd suspect that there is some leeway in oil level.

Did you notice the grease cup on the v-drive. That needs regular turning and occasional packing.
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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 17
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Am I following you right [IMG]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y14/PaperboyRacing/Motor.jpg[/IMG]

"If you open up the access ports, you may find that the v-drive also gets its oil from the reverse gear, in which case, you'd want to try to drain the oil from the lowest point you can access, then fill the reverse gear as usual to 1" below the tailshaft at the rear of the clutch, then you're home free."

Are you talking take off the plate that I am point at and call the reverse gear, looks like it has a palmer logo on it and the oil in there should be 1" below the output shaft? you do not want oil in the clutches correct? and when you talk about the grease cup am i pointing to the right thing and if so how do you service that? thanks for all your help.

Scott
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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 18
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 02:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh and back to the prop subject were going to hold off I had a friend close to the boat take some measurements and find the stamp on the prop, the current prop is stamped with D16PllR- meaning 16" dia, Pitch 11, and right hand turn. CDI did not feel I would get much diffrent out of one of his props.

Scott
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Richard Shapiro
Senior Member
Username: mainesails

Post Number: 58
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, but I have to prepare for dinner guests, so I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Rich
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 578
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reverse gear with its built in clutch and reduction gear take SAE 30 weight Non Detergent oil. Have not found the spec sheet yet on the v-drive but I exspect it will also call for SAE 30. Same as the engine motor oil. Have not a clue what the grease up is all about. Best I can offer.
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 579
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2008 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Palmer recomended a 15 x 11 prop with a 2:1 reduction.
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Scott Helgesen
Member
Username: paperboy

Post Number: 19
Registered: 06-2006


Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 04:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard S. did you have time to take a look at the pictures and give me your insite on checking the oil levels in the reverse drive and v-drive as well as servicing the grease cup? is there a grease cup type thing on the water pump as well?

Thanks
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Richard Shapiro
Senior Member
Username: mainesails

Post Number: 60
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, April 14, 2008 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry for the late reply, Scott. I haven't been able to keep up with work and correspondence slipped.

There is a grease cup on the stock water pump, but I couldn't get a decent look at the pump in the photos. I don't know if you have the same water pump. You should be able to tell if you have one because it looks identical to the one on the v-drive.

I'm afraid that I don't have much to help you with as to the oil levels in the v-drive, unless it turns out that it shares its oil supply with the reverse gear. I'd say that if you pump the oil out of the v-drive and the oil level in then reverse gear drops, then you're home free.

If it does, then I'd pump the oil out and re-fill with 30 weight oil as per the manual - to 1" below the tail shaft where it exits the clutch in the reverse gear. The manual states that the clutch assembly should dip well into the oil, but that it should not be overfilled. I take this to mean that you can be a bit low, but not high on the oil level.

~~~~~

If not, then you've got a bit of a quandary. None of the materials I have show further detail on the v-drive. The only picture I have shows a slightly different one.

Basically, you won't know how much or what type of oil to put in.

I would start by draining the oil and saving it. The oil itself and the quantity will tell you a lot.

In the worst case, I would put back the original oil. Unless it's full of metal shavings or water, it's likely ok. Unlike engine oil, this oil isn't subjected to extreme temperatures or combustion by-products, and I doubt the tolerances in the gear are all that tight anyway.

If it looks like motor oil and has the same viscosity, then it's probably motor oil. If it's thick and heavy, then it's something else and you need to ask an expert.

The drive itself may give you a clue. If you can find a maker's name or model number on it, that would be a start. If there's a fill or drain part way up one of the sides of the case, then it's a reasonable bet that you can fill it until oil comes out the hole in the side (more or less like an auto differential).

These are the areas of the v-drive that need lubrication: the bushing/bearings at each end of the two shafts and where the two gears mesh.

There may or may not be a bushing at the front of the upper shaft, as the output bearing in the reverse gear may be doing the job, and that gets its lubrication from the reverse gear.

The aft bearing on the upper shaft gets its lubrication from the grease cup, so it's not expected to get oil from the v-drive internally.

So, that leaves the lower shaft and the meshing of the gears. I'm not a tranny expert, but so long as both ends of the shaft are getting oil, you're good to go, as the gear teeth will be dipping well into the oil. Overfilling it will likely cause greater resistance and/or leaking of the excess oil, but I doubt it would be fatal.

That's about all I can offer for advice - and I'd be a lot more comfortable even saying this much if I could look at the unit myself, but lets see where this leads.
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Howard Taylor
Member
Username: catec

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, December 15, 2008 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I often see on the info board, several inquiries about using Electric Fuel pumps for the Palmer 60 engine (Zenith Carb.).
I have been using an electric fuel pump on my Morgan 30 sailboat with a Palmer 60 engine for over 12 years; and I think that it was provided as original equipment with the boat in 1970. The original pump was made by Purolite.

I recently replaced the pump with a Mr. Gasket Part No. 42S, which seems to be working quite well. (available from NAPA car parts stores). It is rated at 2 to 4 psi.

If the pressure is excessive, i.e. forcing gas out of the carburetor inlet, one can add a
4 Ohm, 10 Watt resister in series with the 12 Volt supply to reduce the pressure.
This size resistor is commonly used for audio systems and is available from Radio Shack or Allied Electronics.
If you need more information, contact me at h.taylor@catec.com

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