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Sludge from dipstick tube.

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Jacob Boyce
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Username: jboyce

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2013 - 12:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just got the boat out of winter storage, engine started up after a fair amount (I don't think excessive) amount of cranking, ran well for about an hour. Came back the next day took it out for a sail, the engine needed extra throttle to keep from dying out. Even with some extra gas it would eventually idle down and die, didn't matter which gear it was in. It would start up right away again, then shortly die out. Figured I had bad fuel...
Came back the next day turned the engine on and looked below to see some muddy colored sludge pouring from the dipstick...
As far as I can figure, I've got a broken head gasket or something worse!
I've attached a picture of the goo. Any advice would be appreciated.
dipstick
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Jim
Member
Username: jimct

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2013 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Possibly a head gasket problem. Remove the spark plugs and see if there is any sign of water on them.
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Jacob Boyce
New member
Username: jboyce

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Monday, May 20, 2013 - 11:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yup, water in all four. That point to head gasket or large expensive cracks?
Any estimates on cost of fixing head gasket?
Thanks,
Jake
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 1057
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 08:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If your engine is fresh water cooled go to your local IHC tractor dealer and buy a head gasket for the IHC CUB-LO-BOY C-60 engine. Simple enough to replace the gasket without a lot problems. Make sure the head and block are not cracked. If not clean up the mess and replace the gasket. If salt water cooled check out the head and block for cracks. If the problem is only the head gasket has failed you are lucky. You can get excellent copper head gaskets for the engine from inquiries@gasketstogo.com. Do not try to use the tractor head gasket with salt water cooling as it will not stand up to the salt water.
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Jacob Boyce
New member
Username: jboyce

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 09:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great, thanks for advice. It is fresh water cooled (ultra cooled here in Lake Superior). Ill post what I find out.
I'm going to assume I need an oil change to then.
Thanks
Jake
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Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert

Post Number: 569
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great advice you got there. An engine flush might be a good idea too at this point. Various ways you could do that. Maybe Dick has a suggestion?

I would get rid of whatever full flow filter you use and install a Frantz toilet paper filter, not only do they filter to a far finer level than any full flow, but they also trap water, up to 5 or 6 ounces. Cheapest filter and the densest you'll ever find. You just have to make sure you get a really tight roll with the right size of tube. Frantz filters are on eBay. Motorguard is another toilet paper type that works well.

Here's a "marine" Frantz unit: copper or brass plate instead of chrome: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111077367062
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 1058
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep in mind the oil in the transmission is not connected to the oil in the crankcase so you don't have to worry it is also being polluted. Better check to be sure but I very much doubt it has been. Pump out the oil from the crankcase through the breather/oil fill pipe. Remove the oil filter and discard. Drain the oil filter cavity by removing the drain plug. Once you get the oil down as much as you can through the oil fill plug note the oil plug in the lower portion of the crankcase on the port side of the engine. Slip a small pan under the plug opening and remove the plug to drain as much as you can.
You really need to locate the cause of the leak of water into the oil. It may be a cracked head or cylinder wall or simply the head gasket. Remember to top up the reverse gear with SAE non Detergent SAE 30 weight to about 3/4" below the shaft to the prop at the aft end of the reverse gear.
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Jacob Boyce
Member
Username: jboyce

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Wednesday, May 22, 2013 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Local mechanic says it's a cracked block. Shoot... Any idea how much those will run me for the part? Labor estimates? Is it really worth it?
Thanks
Jake
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Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie

Post Number: 310
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not really. If you are going to put that much money and time into it you might be better off repowering with a diesel.
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Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert

Post Number: 570
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would confirm that really is the case before doing anything rash. The mechanic is not exactly a disinterested party is he? I hear mechanics have been known to sell people things they don't need the odd time!

I'm trying to visualize how a cracked block would put water in all four cylinders.
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Jacob Boyce
Member
Username: jboyce

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good point. The reasoning I was given is that if it were a head gasket problem, the engine would have seized up. It still cranks, and bubbles mud... Therefore they are headed down the path of it being a cracked block. Thoughts?
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Eddie Ross
Senior Member
Username: eddie

Post Number: 311
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That doesn't prove that it is a bad block. Get another opinion. There are new after market cylinder heads available . If it is a cracked head or blown head gasket it is still easily fixable. You need to absolutely verify what the problem really is.
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 1059
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your P-60 engine is basically an IHC Cub LO-BOY C-60. IHC made over 500,000 and it is a very simple and easily converted to marine purposes. Go to a IHC tractor dealer and buy a basic C-60 rebuilt block. Strip all the bolt on portions of your existing engine. Don't throw anything away in case you make a mistake and need it. The crankshaft on the rebuilt block is identical to your engine. The reverse gear drive spline has to be pressed onto the end of the replacement crankshaft. The oil pump in the crankcase is the standard oil pump. The cast iron crankcase will bolt right up to the engine block. Get a P-60 gasket rebuild kit from inquiries@gasketstogo.com That will save a lot of time and cutting gaskets for the rebuild.
If you don't want to go this route then put in a diesel and live with the fumes. Hope this helps.
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Jim
Member
Username: jimct

Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Before getting too carried away with replacing the engine, you might want to check out the exhaust manifold water jacket. If it has developed an internal leak it could dump water into all four cylinders. To test it, remove the water inlet & outlet fittings from the top of the manifold and fill the manifold water jacket to the top with water through one of the openings. Let it sit for a few days and see if the water level has dropped. If it hasn't the manifold is likely good. If the level has dropped it is bad. If it is bad, search around for another manifold. eBay is a good starting point since P6o's come up every now & then where the seller is willing to part it out. I've found two manifolds that way. I agree with the post above... I can't see how a cracked block could dump water into all four cylinders.

So, two things to check: Bad head gasket from possibly under-torqued head bolts or the manifold is leaking internally, possibly from a freeze-up last winter. It is well worth chasing these possibilities down since replacing the P60 with a diesel may run you $8k to $10k by the time you're back in commission. A new gas engine (Atomic-4 is a good choice) would be considerably less.

Keep us posted & good luck!
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Cay Small
Member
Username: seagal007

Post Number: 19
Registered: 07-2012
Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no way a cracked block could put water in all four cylinders unless you had a catistrophic failure. I agree with Richard and Jim. Also no matter what a deisel will never run as smooth and quiet as a p60 or atomic4.
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Jacob Boyce
Member
Username: jboyce

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2013 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So even with the goo coming out of the dipstick tube, there may be a chance that (I can hope) that it's not the block/gasket? I'll get right on those tests and keep you posted.
I am pretty sure I saw water on cylinders x4. I put them back in right after, so water should still be there. I should double check again. Which cylinders are indicative of a gasket/block?
I really do like the p60, works well, when it works... Which for me is not very frequently.
Wasn't planning on repowering, I've got an outboard mount and one of those that works. Diesel is out of the question, I could buy a new boat for that, that already has one...
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Jim
Member
Username: jimct

Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, May 24, 2013 - 08:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any or all of the cylinders can have water in them if the head is cracked (from a freeze-up during the winter) of if the head gasket is blown. Same is true for the manifold.
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Richard A. Day Jr.
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 1060
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Friday, May 24, 2013 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

New heads are available but make sure you install the relief tube from the forward cylinder otherwise air steam build up can cause the cooling water to be forced down the side of the cylinders and a sudden rush of cold water could do real damage. That tube should be blown out each year to make sure it doesn't become blocked. The threaded hole near it on the top of the head has no function in the marine application it is provided to mount the tractor throttle rod support. Palmer would put a threaded plug in it in most cases so if you buy a replacement head it won't have a threaded plug in it and you will have to drill and tap the relief tube in the tractor head. Just put it about where it is in the Palmer head.
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Glen Marcotte
New member
Username: glenmarc58

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Thursday, May 30, 2013 - 11:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greetings to all, Great discussion group here and generous solid advice!....Jacob , I can commiserate with your engine issue. My m60 had starting issues but after changing out the coil and points solved the problem, then it wouldnt fire again so I went thru the check procedures and pulling the plug out of number 4 (closest to the distributor) to check for spark, and a gusher of water came out!! arrgh..pulled all plugs and found #3 had sum volume while 1 and 2 were dry. I am thinking a blown exhaust manifold :-( (no freezing in my area) Perhaps someone somewhere has a manifold to sell (Ebay ?) ...or..atomic 4
All comments welcome
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Jacob Boyce
Member
Username: jboyce

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 07:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Finally got the head off. A puddle was in the second cylinder, just drops else where. Gasket has a number of potential problems, I think it is the original... Here's hoping thats all it is!
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Jacob Boyce
Member
Username: jboyce

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 07:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also forgot to mention a few the bolts directly above second cylinder were very easy to get out. Replacing the gasket anyhow. Again here's hoping.
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Glen Marcotte
New member
Username: glenmarc58

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2013
Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2013 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Jacob!Happy to hear your head bolts came out easily! Mine were a BEAR even with lots of liquid wrench and I twisted 3 off! Anyways I was happy it wasnt the exhaust manifold! I will be keeping my old gasket as a not nice momento. The previous owner had installed it in 2005! here is a link for a replacement... http://www.farmallcubforever.com/product/251229R3
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Matt
New member
Username: coolislander

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2013
Posted on Saturday, June 15, 2013 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Molina Gaskets on Mariposa in Torrance, CA is still willing to make copper sandwich head gaskets. I've seen Farmall C60 used blocks on ebay for as little as $160 and up over $360 (but pickup only in OH or MI). New heads are also there. (search Farmall C60). Also, full gasket sets (which I can also get from yesterdaystractors.com)

I wasted a bunch of money and time replacing my head gasket only to find out the water pump had failed. Remove the pump, cover the output, add 3 feet of hose, elevate and fill with water. If it leaks out the shaft end, problem found.

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