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Unknown 4cylinder inboard

Old Marine Engine » Unknown Engines - post here with photos » Unknown 4cylinder inboard « Previous Next »

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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2011 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh15/Transpiria/01251249.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh15/Transpiria/01251248b.jpg

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh15/Transpiria/01251248a.jpg


http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh15/Transpiria/01251248.jpg



Any info would be great, thanks!
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Bruce Hall
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Username: bruce

Post Number: 246
Registered: 07-2002
Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2011 - 08:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now THAT'S and engine! a beaute! no idea
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Lew Dobbins
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Username: ldobbins

Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2011 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Greetings all,
Where is this engine? What else do we know about it? Are there any closeup detail shots? I have a suspicion but can't say for sure without a little more detail.

Cheers,

Lew
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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2011 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can get some more shots tomorrow. It's in Saginaw, Michigan
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miro forest
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Username: miro

Post Number: 548
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2011 - 10:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Could it be an early Van Blerck ?

miro
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RichardDurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2568
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2011 - 11:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*

4cyluk

VaB


*
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miro forest
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Username: miro

Post Number: 549
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Friday, January 28, 2011 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

good grief - who'da thunk ther'd be one somewhere

Well, Lynn Mack jr, you seem to have an engine that is not seen very often. It certainly is worth preserving and protecting.
Many of the folks who frequent this web site would be pleased to assist you.

miro
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David W Flowers
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Username: aonemarine

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 10:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is a very interesting engine, What year do you think it was made in? or what year was the magazine article from? Id love to help load that motor into the bed of my truck :-) LOL
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kent van emst
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Username: kent_van_emst

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2010
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 10:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This engine would look very nice in my small collection of marine engines. I hope has a good home inside soon. Kent Van Emst Northport, Mi.
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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well thank you guys for the info, I'll get some more details and pictures monday. The motor is up for grabs. The owner would much rather see it go to a good home than the scrap pile. I do know it's stuck, whether bound up from sitting or otherwise. Sad thing is it was intact before somebody before got a better idea and pulled it from the hull, breaking the detroit oil resivoir and distibutor.
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David W Flowers
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Username: aonemarine

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Saturday, January 29, 2011 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How would I contact someone about getting this motor?
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Andrew Menkart
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Username: andrew

Post Number: 1114
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 06:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The marina has sent me some more photos that I will post here also.

As regulars to this site will be well aware, this appears to be an exceptional engine and very worthy of proper preservation or restoration.

I can't say if it would be best at a museum or a private collector. But it should go to someone or some organization who has the ability and resources to care for it properly and make it available for public view if possible.

Use the search function on this board to search Van Blerck.
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Andrew Menkart
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Username: andrew

Post Number: 1115
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More photos:

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8
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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have recieved a few calls about selling this engine, but I don't even know what a fair price would be. Can anyone point me in the right direction. Thanks
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Roger DiRuscio
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Username: solarrog

Post Number: 472
Registered: 03-2002


Posted on Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 09:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where is it located?
Roger
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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 04:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More info;

It was owned by one of the Stoddard brothers (hydro plane fame) who was a commercial fisherman in the area for many many years. It sat in his garage for who knows how long until after he died and the house was sold/and or torn down.

It's been moved inside out of the elements and the plugs removed to fill the cylinders with oil. Tomorrow I will take my camera down and get some detailed photos now that it's off the ground to hopefully help pinpoint a year a little better and look for signs of a more positive identification.

if anayone has any further hints of info they can share here or e-mail me @ riverdragon@hotmail.com or give me a ring @ 989 254 2848 -- Lynn
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miro forest
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Username: miro

Post Number: 551
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that it fairly certainly is a Van Blerck
It is not the earliest of his engines.

The early engines has open cylinder casting with brass panels that made the water jacket for cooling.
I posted pictures of such an engine several years ago.

This one looks to be later when the foundry could cast headless cylinders with complete water jackets.

Look carefully at the cylinder pictures and you'll see the foundrymen were probably more artists than workmen in getting those castings done.

I don't think you'd ever find a replacement cylinder and casting a new one is out of the question today.

Will try to pin done the date over the next week or so.

miro


miro
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RichardDurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2571
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2011 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*

1913 would be close !

*
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David W Flowers
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Username: aonemarine

Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 12:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

all this talk of not being able to reprodue the cylinder castings of engines built all most 100 years ago makes me want to crank up the heat on my foundry and go for it, just to prove it can still be done!!!! Argh! to me it seems not so difficult, but then again i love a challenge.
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kent van emst
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Username: kent_van_emst

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Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 08:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my younger years I worked in a pattern shop at a foundry. we made engine blocks for AMC. This is no easy task, casting a block in iron and the cost would be very high . But if it is sold I hope it is put on display by a collector, or a engine club and not in some museum ending up in a basement!! Kent Van Emst
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David W Flowers
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Username: aonemarine

Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kent Van emst, Yes engine block casting is difficult, but not impossible. There is a reason the old engines are cast with individual cylinders, if one bore had a blow hole you dont have to trash the whole block, just that cylinder.
As far as where the engine is best to go to, I feel a small club that would take the engine to shows is best as they will probably take better care of it.
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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2011 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When the guys get done doing what they are doing in the shop I have a bore scope I can record video and pics from. I'll see when we can get it down to the shop where it's not 10 degrees and see what it looks like inside.

Moved photos to a dedicated album avaliable here; http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh15/Transpiria/Van%20Blerck/
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arthur roy davies
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Username: steamroy

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have restored 2 4 cyl vanblercks from 1913-14 about 9 years ago .I admit your engine looks somewhat like them,I wouldn't call it vanblerck yet .if it is ,it's earlyer,maybe 1910-12.I have picture of a jencick from 1908 that looks similar I will keep looking.good luck ROY
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RichardDurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2574
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Friday, February 04, 2011 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
After searching for VanBlerck T-head photos to help figure this one out I have noticed that the rectangular side covers on VanBlercks are secured by center bolts as in 1914 ad - the in question engine has perimeter bolts ???

*

vb14


q4cyl

*
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miro forest
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Username: miro

Post Number: 552
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Saturday, February 05, 2011 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looking at the ignition on the pictures and comparing them to the ad,
here are a couple of thoughts:

On the engine, it looks like there are 2 ignition systems - one that terminates the spark plug wires at the front of the engine on what looks to be a timer on top of the oiler. Could be that the shaft that runs the oiler also runs timer. That system is on the exhaust side of the block. Look carefully at the insulating spacers - they have 4,3,2,1 holes starting at the flywheel end.
It could be that what I call the timer, could really be a high voltage distributor.


The second system could be terminated by the magneto at the rear of the engine. The insulating spacers have 4 , 3,2,1 holes starting at the rear of the engine on the intake side of the engine.

Could it be that the first system was used to start the engine on battery power with the second system being used to run the engine once it was going.

It would be good if there were slightly better pictures of what is left of the distributor / timer and of the magneto on the rear of the engine.

Richard , could take a magnifying glass to take a look at the ad and see if you can make out any better detail on how the spark plug wires run?
Or better yet, scan the area of interest with high resolution and then magnify it.

Anyone else have thoughts?

miro
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RichardDurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2575
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 06:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miro
This is the 97 year old ad on an orange page color, put the scanner on max resolution!
should be able to copy this and enlarge it several times ? wish it was better- reminds me of these lines from the 1956 hit by Charlie Ryan.

Wound it up to a-hundred-and-ten
My speedometer said that I hit top end
My foot was glued like lead to the floor
That's all there is and there ain't no more

"Hot Rod Lincoln"



VBres



*
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miro forest
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Username: miro

Post Number: 553
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK Richard - that's great - more than enough.

It shows 5, (what looks to be) high tension cables
on a distributor, not a timer with the distributor being on the same shaft as the oiler.
So somewhere off board the engine, there would have been an ignition coil.

Now if we could get better pictures of the engine, or alternatively get Lynn Mack Jr to take a really good look at the engine to do a comparison, then, we might have a confirming ID.

The arrangement of the oiler plus distributor may be unique to early Van Blerck engines.

miro
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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Roy

Well we have the engine up in the shop and after cleaning it up a bit everyting looks very good, we found that the crank case is made of aluminum and the juggs are all cast iron which seemed odd for the time in which this engine would have been built. Also you said that you have restored a couple, if you don't mind was it a costly job and is the outcome worth the time and money. And after all is said and done do you know a rough amount of what it would be worth.
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RichardDurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2576
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 11:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
Max Homefeld article in Sept/Oct Gas Engine magazine .

The many different models of engines can have
different details and accessory specs !



http://gasengine.farmcollector.com/Gas-Engines/THE-CAREER-OF-JOSEPH-VAN-BLERCK.a spx#ixzz1DCLFQspf


**
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RichardDurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2578
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, February 06, 2011 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
1911 ad shows Van Blerck crankcase side covers like the engine in-question !


1911


vb1911


The 1911 intake and exhaust are on opposite sides of the in-question engine ??

**
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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 02:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll have some more photos later today and update the album.
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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 09:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We found a date on a grease plug on the output shaft for the transmissin it's Dec 26, 1905,all we can make out as far as words is Detriot, Mi also if anyone knows which one of the 4 cylinders is the #1 and which way the moter turns over clockwise or counter clockwise.I will have more detail pics posted today.
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arthur roy davies
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Username: steamroy

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I have to agree it's vanblerck ,between 1908-12,thats a verry rare engine.as for restoration,that depends on the end use.if it's going to be instaled in a boat and be dependable I think it would cost in acces of 15 grand,if you are going this way you must not get squemish about the cost and enjoy the result.I guess it's your decision to make.I would be able supply a name plate for the top of the engine,it's a reproduction with out numbers on it.
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arthur roy davies
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Username: steamroy

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

chad, as for selling it,the most important thing must be its preservation,be carefull not to let it get into the wrong hands.as for price,I would think start negotions around 2500 us.good luck.
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Andrew Menkart
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Username: andrew

Post Number: 1117
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chad,

You would probably be best selling it "as-is / unrestored". In most cases that is what the buyer will want.

I agree with Roy, you should try to find a "good" home for it rather than the highest bidder.

Keep us posted.
Thanks.
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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Photo album has been updated, along with a couple videos. Quite an interesting engine. There is a grease cap on the tail shaft stamped with the date Dec 26th 05. The block is aluminum, and I was quite surprised to see roller lifters. After a good wash it cleaned up very nicely. It rolls over smoothly along with the gearbox functioning properly. Next up, see what can be done with the damaged Detroit Lubricator and some spark. Enjoy.

http://s252.photobucket.com/albums/hh15/Transpiria/Van%20Blerck/
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arthur roy davies
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Username: steamroy

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 06:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW ,good pictures man,I didn't realize it was free turning ,restoration costs might be a little cheaper.do you have the water pump and gear cover?the pump on the 1913 engine was a lobee 2 vane,
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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the water pump was on the engine. Fabbing up a whatever to get it operational is not a big problem until if or when the proper one can be found.
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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On the mag Mel found that is a Bosch Type D4 with the number 231018 Model 1908, we believe that the Mag has been replaced once. Does anyone know where we may find parts for the Mag. Mel is thinking this engine is from 1906.
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J.B. Castagnos
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Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 575
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Monday, February 07, 2011 - 09:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The distributor looks like an Atwater Kent, they only function in one direction, this one appears to be clockwise. See which rotation gives you clockwise on the distributor. I've never worked on these ignitions, but I believe they take a special coil. You could probably operate a standard coil through a relay if you can't get the correct coil. As for # 1, use the cylinder next to the flywheel, bring it to top center on the stroke when the valves aren't moving, this will be compression stroke. Turn the engine in direction of rotation, the center cylinders will be coming up, the one that the valves aren't moving on will be the next to fire, # 4 next, then the other center cylinder. The firing order will be 1342 or 1243, wire the distributor accordingly.
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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

here are some more pictures
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Keith Billet
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Username: keith

Post Number: 317
Registered: 02-2002


Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would not base the age of the engine on a patent date on a grease cup or that of the mag. The style of the mag has more importance. If you compare the details of your engine to those listed in the link provided by Richard Durgee above, you may find more relevant info to date the engine.
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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2011 - 04:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is quite a few differences in the pictured ad from above and Mels motor. The mag was replaced along the way as there are different sets of mounting holes on the engine frame that were drilled. He got the mag apart and cleaned it reassembled it and it has spark to it. There is a person locally that is going to repolarize the magnets and we'll see what comes of it then.

He's on the Detroit Lubricator now which is going to take some work. After that is sorted out I think it'll be smooth sailing the rest of the way.
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miro forest
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Username: miro

Post Number: 556
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 07:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a picture of the guy who made the engine Joe Van Blerck

http://cgi.ebay.com/1949-Speedboat-Racer-Joe-Van-Blerck-Press-Photo-/26073523586 6?pt=Art_Photo_Images&hash=item3cb507f71a


miro
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Andrew Menkart
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Username: andrew

Post Number: 1119
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2011 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miro,

That's neat... but I think that would have to be Joe Jr (photo from 1949), Joseph Van Blerck's son. He worked for his dad and is the one shown holding the "Junior" engine in some of the ads to prove how light it was. From the looks of him he could hold a inline 6 diesel!

1

2
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William Schaller
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Username: billschaller

Post Number: 415
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Friday, February 18, 2011 - 02:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1914

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Lynn Mack jr
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Username: lynn

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, February 18, 2011 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very close
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RichardDurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2634
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2011 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*

1912

vb12


*
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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2011 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have nearing everything for are very early 1900 Van Blerck Marine Engine. The only things weremissing are some infromation and a Lobee 2 vane Sea pump. Some information we are looking for is:
1. The proper gap for the points. 4 cylinder, with an Atwater Kent Type H Unisparker.
2. Amount of oil that goes in the engine.
3. If anyone know where I can get some literature.
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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 15
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2011 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have up to date pictures of this engine but I'm having trouble uploading them can anyone help???
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Ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 1406
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2011 - 06:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chad,
Click my name to the left and e-mail them to me. I will post them for you.
Hope this helps
Ernie
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Ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 1407
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2011 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chad's Pics
Neat Engine!








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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Saturday, September 10, 2011 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The engine is now running in tip top shape and we are looking for a buyer, if anyone is interested in making a reasonable offer maybe we can work something out. Please contact Mel at sagmarina@sbcglobal.com, chadtoth2000@yahoo.com
Thank You for your time!
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Chad Toth
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Username: chad4402

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Correction to Mel;s email address it is sagmarina@sbcglobal.net
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Robert
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Username: robert

Post Number: 444
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2011 - 11:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks good. The Atwater Kent Type H is not the original distributor for the engine based on the illustrations above, but it may well have been an earlier AK "Unisparker".

What happened to the Manzel lubricator that made you replace the box; freeze cracked?

Good idea to leave it unpainted for now.

Is the history of this particular engine known?
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2011 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As far as the lubricator goes it's a long story, but to cut it short the engine was found in the garage of a man by the name of Stauder he was a commerical fisherman here in the Saginaw Bay area and when he died the guys that cleaned out he's estate pulled it out of the barn with chains not knowing what it was and brought it to us and we bought it. We are just waiting to get a tank so in the mean time we made that so we could run it. And yes there is a great story behind the engine most of it is from storys of people that know him.
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John E Tierney
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Username: bud_tierney

Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2009
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2011 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Being unfamiliar with HP ratings of marine engines, in the 1911 ad above each engine has a range of HP (Hi spd 4cyl 40-60 HP etc)...
Was this HP range strictly a product of RPMs, or were other systems (carb? ign? comb chamber? exhaust?) tweaked on different engines to get higher HP?? Many thxx!! Bud
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 08:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mel would like to sell the engine but we would like to have it appraised. Can anyone pointed us in the right direction??
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Robert
Senior Member
Username: robert

Post Number: 453
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2011 - 11:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd suggest you make a video of it running and post on Youtube.
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Richard Bartrop
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Username: bartropr

Post Number: 55
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2011 - 05:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Superb engine. What does the annular section around the exhaust pipe do? It also now appears to have an additional hole in the larger diameter piece which sleeves the exhaust pipe. Is it to warm the air for the carby?If so how does it couple up?
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2011 - 08:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We believe that the hole in the exhaust pipe was used to heat the Captain house. Mel is done duck hunting now and is going to start working on a few finishing touches. So I'll be posting a few more pictures and a video of the engine running on utube.
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Brad Hunter
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Username: silverghost

Post Number: 32
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2012 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am seriously Very interested in finding, & buying, a very early 4 or 6 cylinder marine engine similar to this age & design type for a very early mahogany wooden raceboat restoration project that we bought several years ago from a Southern New Jersey Seashore estate. I am well into this raceboat restoration project.
Interested in a similar seperate jug style cylinder or "T" style cylinder marine engine based on a similar common crankcase.
The engine should be able to be restorable to running condition, or already restored & running .
I am farily new to very early marine engines, but not to Antique mahogany boats & Brass era (pre 1916) auto restoration projects.
We have a collection of 30+ Brass era (pre 1916) & full Classic (pre 1940)grand autos & mahogany wood boats in our private museum collection.
My 90 Y/O uncle & I are working on this raceboat restoration project together as was my 92 y/o father.

Any help,information, or tips as to where to find a similar 1900-1920 early multi-cylinder marine engine for our raceboat restoration project is greatly appreciated from members of this geat Antique Old Marine Engine forum.

Thank's
Brad Hunter
Just outside Philadelphia
silverghost1926@msn.com
1 215 947 4676 (Home)
1 215 479 6667 (cell)
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Brad Hunter
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Username: silverghost

Post Number: 34
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2012 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A number of folks have emailed, & called, asking what kind of early mahogany raceboat we are restoring for the museum collection.
The raceboat is a very early "Ventnor" raceboat built in the Atlantic New Jersey/ Ventnor Abseacon island~~ designed & built by famed raceboat designer + boat-builder Adolph Apel .
Adolph Apel, & his son Arno, later first designed & patented + perfeced the now world famous three-point hydroplane hulls .
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Keith Billet
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Username: keith

Post Number: 342
Registered: 02-2002


Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2012 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pictures of your hull and progress would be interesting.
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Keith Billet
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Username: keith

Post Number: 343
Registered: 02-2002


Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2012 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Possibly in a new thread.
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Mel Turner
Visitor
Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2014 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This engine is still up for sale, looking to get it appraised. Can someone please point us in the right direction?
(989) 791-1034
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the video of this engine running as promised. Sorry for the delay.

http://youtu.be/QqeuUMazVEU
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RichardDurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 3252
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, March 13, 2014 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*
Outstanding work, Really appreciate seeing this old classic engine run ! Thanks



*
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miro forest
Senior Member
Username: miro

Post Number: 751
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Friday, March 14, 2014 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen brother -

Seems that the delay was worth the wait.

Congrats

miro
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 22
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Saturday, March 15, 2014 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for the compliments. We however believe this engine is the oldest 4 cylinder Van Blerck Engine ever found. It is running great now. Some of the difference we notice from the ads pictured above are as follows. In the 1911 ad, the crank case covers are tapered or have beveled edges and ours does not. The gears at the rear of the engine have a cover on them, and ours does not. It appears that it never had one because there are no bolt holes around the gears. The lifter housings are longer/taller then on our engine. Also the linkage of spark to throttle ratio is different. We have three seperate levers where that engines controls were all linked together. We really wish we could see the magneto side of this engine to make even more comparisons. The ad that is on the orange paper above is also different. The lifter housings are longer/taller and the linkages are all connected. The ad with the 1914 engine is different too. The crank case covers are completely different, it has a different lubricator cap and a different carburetor.

The carburetor that is on our engine is a Kingston 5 ball updraft marine carburetor. They were only made from 1905-1910. The grease cap on the prop shaft is dated December 26th 1905, and was made in Detroit, MI.
Our magneto is a model D4, 1908. We believe this magneto has been replaced at some point. It has wittness marks from where a different style magneto was bolted. They drilled new holes when they replaced it with this magneto.

If anyone has any additional ads/flyers for his motors we would really be interested in seeing them. Thanks again
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also wanted to mention an interesting thing about our engine. It has an cast aluminum crank case. Every other engine I have found has been steel or cast iron.

Also does anyone know what type of reverse gear this is?

[IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/wv48t4.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/20ze1r5.jpg[/IMG]
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 11:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More pictures of reverse gear

[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/2z8t2c6.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/s46s94.jpg[/IMG]
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Lew Dobbins
Senior Member
Username: ldobbins

Post Number: 141
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Remember that when trying to date these parts, that these are patent dates and they would possibly be used for many years. The Schebler Model D carb is a perfect example with a 1902 patent date. It was sold and used into the late teens.

While looking at all the ads and articles I have been able to find, I am still leaning to 1909 to 1910 for your engine. Possibly as early as 1908 but it feels to be too refined for 1908 in her castings and manifolds. Also that style of Manzel (or what ever brand it is) oiler / lubricator was rare on marine engines prior to 08.

It is no doubt, the earliest JVB I have seen too!

Cheers,

Lew The West Coast Sterling Guy
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Lew for the information. Our oiler/lubricator is The Detroit Lubricator, Model G. Most of the people we have been in contact with are dating this engine 1906-1910. Even at the newer end (1910), it is still the oldest one I know of right now.
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Thursday, March 27, 2014 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Our bore size is 4.5" and stroke is 5.5"
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 04:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are a few other things that are kind of interesting. On the cast aluminum crank case it has some markings from when they had it apart, possibly re-built it at some point. This picture shows the #2 that was used to line it back up, also four dots, witness marks.
[IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/zja4g3.jpg[/IMG]

This picture shows when he originally built it he put marks down when he laid it all out.
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/2dw56dz.jpg[/IMG]

There are also spots with three dots.
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 29
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a close up picture of the Bosch Magneto Model D4. To the left of it you can see old mounting holes where the original magneto was mounted. Also notice that the gears are uncovered.
[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/27ypc3o.jpg[/IMG]

This is a close up of the Kingston 5 ball Updraft Marine Carb
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/10ykqiw.jpg[/IMG]

This is a close up of the atwater kent distributor TYPE H
[IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/wqr4h5.jpg[/IMG]

This picture is a close up of the atwater kent unisparker
[IMG]http://i62.tinypic.com/2vinu43.jpg[/IMG]
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Chad Toth
Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grease cap close up

[IMG]http://i61.tinypic.com/2q397kj.jpg[/IMG]

SMWRKS also cast mark on bearing cover
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Chad Toth
Advanced Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit Lubricator Close Up

[IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/4qpsg4.jpg[/IMG]

The Detroit Lubricator Company was founded in 1879 by Henry Clay Hodges and his brother Charles C. Clay. Unable to find any information on this NO. 52981 associated with the company.
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Chad Toth
Advanced Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Friday, March 28, 2014 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also found some good literature on him and his company. Figured Id share it.

This article has some information of the early years but has more on the later years. Still interesting.
http://www.gasenginemagazine.com/gas-engines/the-career-of-joseph-van-blerck.asp x?PageId=1


http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2000-04-02/travel/0004020012_1_engines-parts- marine

In this article I find one particular statement interesting.

"Even two motors of the same cylinder size and number of cylinders were not very much alike, (so) it was impossible to interchange parts to a very great extent. It was a work of art to get parts to replace those worn out or broken," he explained, as reported in Grayson's book.

Each year, sales increased, but so did overhead, as Van Blerck was constantly buying patterns, tools and jigs. It was a problem the company would have until 1908, when a standard was set. Van Blerck then began anew with another catalog that heralded the change.
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Chad Toth
Advanced Member
Username: chad4402

Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2011
Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2014 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Our engine is currently in Mystic Seaport, Conneticut. We left it out there for the engine show in August. Anyone interested in seeing please attend the show. Thanks.
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Robert B. Price
Senior Member
Username: rbprice

Post Number: 464
Registered: 11-2001


Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2014 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chad - is your engine in the large collection or will it be at the show area?
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Ned Lloyd
Member
Username: ned_l

Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2012
Posted on Monday, July 21, 2014 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw it at the WBS in Mystic. I am looking forward to seeing it running at the engine show!

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