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Early St. Lawrence Engine

Old Marine Engine » One and Two Cylinder Gas Inboards » Early St. Lawrence Engine « Previous Next »

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bgoss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 54
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We just got an early St.Lawrence single not too far from home. I think that JB was asking at one time where to find the serial numbers on these early engines. Has anyone come up with an answer to that question?

st1
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1860
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, November 03, 2008 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Blair

Could you post photos of this engine ?

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bgoss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 55
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure Richard.
It's still a little dirty, but shows black paint with remnants of nickel on the head and flywheel rim.

There are a few differences on this one: exhaust manifold (missing) isn't wet but rather the outlet from the water jacket is just above the manifold, intake manifold comes straight out from the engine rather than stepping down, split pump eccentric separate from the coupling and what appears to be the original 'St.Lawrence' carb.

st2
st3
st4
st5
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barry
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Username: barry

Post Number: 73
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Blair,

That must be one of the original St Lawrence engines. I've never seen a St Lawrence carb only the catalogue page attached.

I wonder why St Lawrence changed to a combination inlet/exhaust manifold where fuel required a vertical lift. I believe the vertical lift is the reason for Schebler dripping. Looks like the original design with horizontal fuel flow is a better arrangement.

Barry




Barry
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1862
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Blair

The serial numbers that I have seen are on the makers tag ! The second I saw your tag I knew you had a different or very old engine baecause of the tag.
The differences in these engs over the yrs has been primarily in the design of the intake / exhaust manifolds. yours with the separate water outlet and intake manifold tells me this is a very early design. the Rice eng design in 1905 had pipe threaded manifolds --Has anyone ever seen a St Lawrence with threaded ports??
Barry Good photo of the old carb was there a date on this info ??

*
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richardday
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Username: richardday

Post Number: 680
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard are you collecting St. Laurence ser no?
My 2 cylinder serial number is 5688. I think it is much later than Blair's.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1863
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2008 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Dick
I haven't been keeping St Lawrence numbers "yet" but it is easy to do with a computer !

Notes from my St Lawrence data base --Established 1905 mfgrd until 1975, Early engines had dry exhausts, Serial numbers put on tags in 1910 started with 500 and by 1917 1850 were made, in 1917 with new investors serial numbers restarted with 5000.

Blairs eng above is 1905-1909
Dick your engine would be a few years after 1917, would have been a gap in here with WWI.
Like always with a few serial numbers and any paper work to certify the year we could interpolate engine mfg dates fairly close !

This is my single serial number # 715, it would be approx 1913-14 ?

sl1

shows the wet exhaust manifold
sl2

sl3

I machined this bloc on end of manifold to be able to run it with a dry exhaust- works great-.

slex1

slex4

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richardday
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Username: richardday

Post Number: 681
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Dick for the info. Nice job on the exhaust
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barry
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Username: barry

Post Number: 74
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 09:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a link to stlawrenceengines.ca with information about serial numbers.


http://www.stlawrenceengines.ca/discuss/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55

Barry
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1864
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Friday, November 07, 2008 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Barry

I have read that web site and it appears that they are looking for info on St Lawrence numbers or info relating serial numbers to their mfgring date also ? The link to St Lawrence web site mentions some numbers and years but no "provenance" ( original bills of sale, repair orders, catalog references) etc.and doesn't seem to jive with my notes in above post ?? I also note that they have no mention of the origins of the St lawrence engine ?
The link to 1905 J.V.Rice engine design as I had mentioned in a post here recently has not been adressed as well ?

It 's alot of work but as we did here many yrs ago with The Gray Marine engines a concerted effort of the readers/collectors on these sites is a powerful research tool. with engine photos or descriptions and an array of serial numbers and any proof relating year of mfgr to a specific serial number could sort out a rough or maybe better sytem to date our St Lawrence engines.

Barry - you seem to have a lot of input on the St Lawrence web site send a few emails to the powers that be there and have them read this post ! I will coordinate photos, serial numbers, and info and post for all to see and they can post it on their site- My bet is within a week or two collectively we could assemble more pertinant info on St Lawrence than has been available at one source in over half a century ?? I'm sure it would be a lot of fun for all interested as well ??

Comments Please !


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barry
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Username: barry

Post Number: 75
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,

Don Buffett who is the person behind stlawrenceengines.ca will be contacting you to follow up on your offer of involvement to track serial numbers. Don lives in Brockville close to the site of the St Lawrence factory. He had relationship with St Lawrence and has a large file of St Lawrence docoments in his possession.

Your engine must be one of the first to be built. Attached is an imagee of one of the last to be built.

Barry


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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1866
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Barry

Thanks for getting in contact with Don, looking foreward to sorting out the information on these very popular Old Marine Engines !
From what I can figure out so far Blairs engine top of this post is one of the earliest engs, my engine with the early serial numbered tag and wet exhaust I believe is a few yrs newer-- But that is what we can hopefully sort out with this endeavor ??

*
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bgoss
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Username: bgoss

Post Number: 57
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There certainly appears to be a sharing of patents and/or patterns from Rice. It looks like St.Lawrence made some changes/improvements of their own right off the start in 1905 and then more alterations at time went on. Barry's engine on the other thread may be a totally different company in the same era that also purchased or used the Rice form with the alteration of over-under ports, solid flywheel, no Rice on inspection plates, etc. Are the ports on Dick Days Rice engine threaded like the unknown engine of Barry's?

The carb on our early St.L also has some similarities to the Rice carb shown in Richards 1905 ad...but then again lots of differences.

Barry, do you have a year on that catelog that shows the St.L carb? I would like to get a copy of the rest if it is available. Are there any engines shown in the catelog that would indicate what style was being produced before they switched to the Schebler?

When they switched from their own carb to the Schebler, they maybe had to drop the intake down to accommodate the nozzle on the Schebler. Or maybe just to get the fuel a few more inches away from the exhaust manifold.

Some interesting changes indeed on the late St.L of Barry's above. Extra inspection hole, no more threaded inlet on the water pump, etc. Is the tag aluminum on that one?

Here is another version of an early tag.

St5

Glad to assist with a listing/registry Richard. Just let us know what you need to start the inventory (serial number, tag style, flywheel size, ignition type, manifold style, ...)

st6
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1868
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2008 - 09:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Thanks. Will need help from collectors for sure!
your post is informative in that I have only seen one other round tag and without serial numbers I will assume an early eng until facts prove otherwise. secondly the early eng on the left in photo above is the one with dry exhaust manifold, and although the center eng round tag is early it appears to be a wet exhaust ? a photo of the manifold side of the twin at right of photo and its serial no. would be a start !

I have learned that St lawrence mfgd these engs from 1905 to approx 1949-50 although the company mfgd outboard motors and did general machine work until 1975- So the project here will be to figure these serial nos into a 45 year span !

One significant difference in early and later engs is the shape of the exhaust manifold casting, the earlier engs had what I'll call flat top rectangular shape like this nice old twin at J.B."s camp a few yrs back.Would like to get serial no. on this one ?

StLawLa

It will be interesting to find out about what year {serial No) they changed the casting to this what i'll call round shaped exhaust manifold ?

Serial #2292

hitm1

hitm7

All information, photos, serial numbers any paperwork etc would be APPRECIATED. if trouble posting photos email them to me in most any form and i,ll add them to the list and post on here.

Richard
oceanblu10@comcast.net

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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller

Post Number: 173
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 12:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is what the bottom looks like if you don't take care of them.

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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller

Post Number: 174
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

here is a side view. Might end up as a lawn ornament.


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john_archibald
Senior Member
Username: john_archibald

Post Number: 88
Registered: 08-2006


Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why doesn't someone use these as patterns and make a new line of St. Lawrence engines or engine parts? Sell them as kits and people could make / machine their own.

Archibald
Northfield, Minnesota
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barry
Senior Member
Username: barry

Post Number: 76
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

About 1910 St Lawrence was building a wide variety of multi cylinder two cycle engines including a light weight series in 1911. Some of the three cylinder versions are mentioned in this discussion board.

Here are two typical images of catalogue pages from what looks like a 1911 catalogue. The St Lawrence carburetor is listed in this catalogue.

Barry



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barry
Senior Member
Username: barry

Post Number: 77
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are images of catalogue pages from what looks like a 1934 catalogue. Only the XA, XB, XC, XD were listed in this catalogue. Apparently the engines listed in the 1911 catalogue were not offered in 1934.

The 1934 catalogue announces a change to aluminum pistons.

The XA was improved at a later date when the water pump was changed to a flanged style and an access plate added to baffles in the transfer passage. Refer to the image of engine 7960.

Also in 194?s XAE and XBE were offered with electric start. About 50 St Lawrence’s are listed in the Dispro Owners Association booklet being used to power Dispros still in regular use. This should be useful to match and date engines as accurate records exist dating Dispros so if the engines are original, the dates will match.

Barry









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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1869
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 01:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Barry
Good stuff - Thanks ! I,m filing all this info to organize later.

The aluminum tag #7960 how do we know its 1947 ?

Interesting sidelight-- yrs ago when organizing and sorting out American deep sea diving helmet mfgrs and their mfg dates I found that during WWII there was a brass drive on to get all brass possible for ammo and most mfgrs switched to aluminum or other non brass materials for their name tags,That seemed to take hold 1942-43 ?wonder if canadian mfgrs did same ? may help date these engs with aluminum tags ??

*
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jb_castagnos
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Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 404
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, that was Nick Betivey's at my camp, it now belongs to Bob Legnon, he pulled it out and it's on his to do list, we were talking about it this week. The rear timer and gear water pump were early. I'll ask him to look for a serial #.
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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1870
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 06:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Thanks J.B.

Does your twin have the early flat top rectangular exhaust manifold ? Serial Number?

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barry
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Username: barry

Post Number: 78
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 07:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From 1946 to 1950 St Lawrence model XAE engines were installed in Dispros

This information taken from Dispro Owners Association Directory 2008 issue.


Hull Number 46-7 year 1946 Engine number 7555
47-14 1947 7635
47-16 1947 7730
47-35 1947 7660
47-09 1947 7676
47-42 1947 7699
47-55 1947 7759
25-48 1948 7787
23-48 1948 7797
26-48 1948 7798
08-49 1949 7847
14-49 1949 7938

Various information suggests St Lawrence stopped manufacturing two cycle engines 1949. However they had in stock engines available. My father purchased engine 7959 year 1951, a model XA so it was supplied from inventory. I use this engine to power my dory. Engine 7960 as illustrated in a previous post may have been manufacture on the same day.

Barry
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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 887
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 08:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have 7821 model XBE
It came from JB. Not sure where he got it.

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jb_castagnos
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Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 405
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, my engine can be seen at this post along with engine # 561. This engine has the shaft timer
like Bobs, I understand they were the early ones.

http://www.oldmarineengine.com/discus/messages/1/2284.html#POST4339

No number on my tag. The manifold has a plaque screwed to it, there's an adjustment screw on the rear cylinder to balance water flow. I've ween some with one screw, some have two, some don't have them.
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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1871
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Barry
This is certainly helpful in showing the serial numbers in last few yrs of mfgr.

Thanks Ernie, from the list above your # 7821 fits right in with the 1948-49 numbers above.

J.B. Looks like your twin is in the early 1905-09 mfgd engines !

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bgoss
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Username: bgoss

Post Number: 58
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 09, 2008 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great stuff.

The flywheel on Bob Legnon's two cylinder above has a step in the outer face that I haven't noticed before.

JB, that posting of your engine and #561 adds another couple of early ones. Keith also shows another round tag engine.

We'll start putting together a list of the ones we know of, with photos where possible. May take a few days though.
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jb_castagnos
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Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 406
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 08:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I talked to Bob, his engine is #1027, it has the rear timer. Ernies engine has a straight thread spark plug, I don't remember if it 7/8" or 18mm. My engine has the 1/2" pipe plugs, knowing when this changed would be an easy way to tell a before or after engine.
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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1872
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Serial #1027 recorded, Thanks.

J.B. The spark plug threading change is an excellent addition to the technical differences and I'll add that to the description list !

my # 715 single in above post is 1/2 pipe thread ! Does Bob's #1027 have pipe threads ?

*
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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 889
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone seen one with a rope start pulley screwed to the flywheel?
The engine belongs to a friend and I will eventually get the S/N and better pics
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barry
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Username: barry

Post Number: 79
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This needs to be verified regarding dates.

St Lawrence made improvements to the XA after WW2 . I am not sure if the change occurred before WW2 however all the XAE engines in the dispro list incorporate these changes.

I am not sure if some or all these changes were also made to the XB, XC. Perhaps Ernie you might comment whether your XBE has any of these updates as yours is also post WW2.

1-- 1/2” NPT plug changed to 18 mm straight thread with copper sealing gasket

2-- Baffles were added to the bypass part and an access plate provided to access the baffles, refer to image attached

3-- The water pump was changed to a two flange connection from the old style that has one threaded connection and one flange connection.

4-- Water pump eccentric design changed, refer to images attached


Here is a link to discussion about St Lawrence spark plugs

http://www.stlawrenceengines.ca/discuss/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38


Another change occurred very late 1940s when Schebler Carburetors were not available apparently because of a strike, so a Zenith carb, modified by St Lawrence, was substituted. My XA #7959 was supplied with a Zenith Carb. I changed to a Schebler D in 2002. At least one of the Dispro XAE engines #7851 still uses the original Zenith, maybe others..


Barry





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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 890
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mine has the late 2 flange pump 18mm spark plug and side cover with baffles

Also on another note I had one years ago with 3 teardrop holes in the flywheel. No spokes And it was electric start, but had the early water pump. It also had baffles in the transfer port with cover. I don't have any pics or the S/N. It had an aluminum piston too. I am positive about the water pump as I bought the engine to get the pump for an early one.
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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1874
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, November 10, 2008 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Ernie
Intersting info, wish you had a photo of the teardrop engine !

That starter looks so big on the one cyl engine I guess if you ran out of fuel you could engage the starter and power home electrically ??
Thanks

*
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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 891
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 08:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a better pic of the rope start attachment
Pic courtsey of Larry Jacobs Mystic 2007 poster
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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 892
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is another from the Mystic 07 poster thanks Larry
An early engine note the head is bigger than the cylinder also the flywheel looks a lot thinner
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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1875
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Ernie

Thanks- Interesting that both these engs have a date of mfgr on them ! The Mathews eng has the later round shaped manifold so that 1922 could very well be the accurate year ? We usually see Doug on here, his engine dated 1915 and does have the earlier flat top manifold, if these serial numbers were known then the manifold casting change would be somewhere in between ??
*
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ernie
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Username: ernie

Post Number: 893
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 12:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
The dates are from the exhibitor info that Mystic provided. Not necessarily related to the actual S/N
Doug??? Your S/N
I will have to get the S/N on the rope start one. It will take a bit for that to happen
Hope this helps
Ernie
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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1878
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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This 1922 ad was posted sometime back (probably by me) ?


stLawrivmot

Although a similar name and just across the big river and down stream a bit this is not the St Lawrence of Brockville, Canada we are discussing here ! I don't believe that Brockville converted Ford engines to marine use ?

St Lawrence River Motor and Engine Co.,Clayton New York same small town the Wonderful Antique Boat Museum is in today !

stLaart

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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1879
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

* This engine was posted here on OME site, it has the baffle plate and tag-- What's serial number on this engine ?


Stome

*
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barry
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Username: barry

Post Number: 80
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 04:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

St Lawrence River Motor and Machine Company in Clayton New York USA was almost directly across the St Lawrence River from the St Lawrence Engine Company in Brockville Ontario Canada.

The Canadian Company also did Ford conversions but only the Canadian Company manufactured two cycle engines.

Here is an image of the Canadian St Lawrence model T conversion, almost identical to the USA St lawrence conversion.

I do not believe the two Companies were related.

Barry


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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1880
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Barry, first actual info i've seen That Brockville adapted ford engines to marine use although their history site says they did -- There is so much info in catalogs etc. still out there if we could only get access to it !
Also surprised that not many serial numbers are being posted I'll keep BEGGING "

*
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richarddurgee
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Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1882
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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This is Dougs engine in Ernies 892 post above!
Serial # 5709

Thanks Doug K.


09-1

09-2

09-3

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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 895
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 06:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

St Lawrence from Brockville also made a Ford flathead V8 conversion
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barry
Senior Member
Username: barry

Post Number: 81
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 06:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In my #79 post on Nov 10, I wondered if XC two cylinder engines were supplied with the newer two flange water pump.

In Bill Schaller’s # 179 post on Nov 9, the engine looks like an XC. The pump is newer style, thus if the musings in my #79 post are correct then Bill’s engine may be post WW2. My XC, serial # 5476, has the old style pump so is probably pre WW2 ???

Comparison images attached.

Ernie confirmed his XBE fits the pre/post ww2 postulate and therefore is post WW2.

Bill, can you advise:

1-- Does your engine have a tag with serial number?

2-- Is the water pump one or two flanges?

3-- Just for interest does the engine turn over?

Barry



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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1883
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Is that an air dome on top of the rear check valve on the new style water pumps ?


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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1884
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Blair

Whats serial # on the Twin right side of photo ?

BG3

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barry
Senior Member
Username: barry

Post Number: 82
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie,

re your 892 post on Nov 11, that's a very useful observation regarding flywheel thickness and should be another aid to establishing dates.

Note the attached images.

The older flywheel is 2.15" thick, the newer is 1.55", both XA engines.

Barry


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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1885
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Another physical difference that I will ad to the list !

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billschaller
Senior Member
Username: billschaller

Post Number: 176
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2008 - 09:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are a few more pictures of mine. I found it in Minnesota, and there is no tag.







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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1890
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Recieved a nice email from Don Buffett from the St Lawrence engines web site and he sent this history presentation.

application/mswordstlapre
St Lawrence presentation.wps.rtf (45.1 k)



Don also has a twin engine that has the round tag and has the serial# 428 on both blocks ! the serial # 1075 with verifiable mfg date of 1917 is what Dick Day calls a Rosetta Stone, and it certainly is that!

Thanks Don
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 410
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ernie, I wanted to check to be sure, my St. Lawrence has holes tapped in the flywheel for a pulley. Pulleys were usually used on magneto engines with no impulse or possibly for starting in a deep well where the flywheel would have been hard to reach. I haven't seen a magneto option listed yet.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1893
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 08:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Did The word document in the above post open OK for everyone ?

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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1896
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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This is what we have assembled so far !
Let me know of errors and any additional serial numbers or general information .

St Lawrence Engine List 11/13/08

STlist


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richardday
Senior Member
Username: richardday

Post Number: 684
Registered: 11-2003


Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't remember if I posted this picture on the page before. This St. Laurence was brought to me back about 1965 by a Baltimore broker he wanted it restored so he could run it. Actually it was just a little greasy and had had very little wear. There were baffles in the transfer port and they were essentially clean. As I remember it had 1/2NPT spark plug. He had a camp up in Canada on a lake and he had acquired this engine with the camp. In exchange he gave me the two cylinder St. Laurence 5688. It is stuck and I have never attempted to restore it. Have had various penertrating oils in it for years but guess I will have to get with it. It had no serial number tag as I remember. I think Don Boehl now owns it and he has brought it to CMM at least once. I don't have any other photos of it.as this goes back to the days of film. Remember that ancient method of taking photographs.

St Laurence owned by Don Boehl
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1897
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Dick Thanks for the nice photo, looks like your getting photo posting down pretty good.

Your St Lawrence twin # 5688 is not on the list above but is on the open list that i'm using as a work sheeet, a few more numbers have been added as well.

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bgoss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Coming back to my computer after a couple of days was quite a shock. My slow dial-up timed out and had to refresh this page 4 or 5 times before I could get all of the photos downloaded.

And I still can't open the St.Lawrence Presentation...but that just seems to be some conflict with Word or Vista or ?

Richard, did Don Buffett note where he found the #428 on the blocks?

I've now gathered together some info on our engines to add to the list. None of them are very pretty, but here they are anyway. Sorry for the delay.
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1898
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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I will open another thread to continue this discussion. Go To

Early St. Lawrence Engines Part II

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Owen Bosma
Visitor
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 05:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's is a picture of a tear drop flywheel the engine is small with a round tag and no serial number. The engine belongs to the members of the Quinte Flywheels and has been on display at the Ameliasburgh Museum.
..... Owen
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1925
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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owen

Thanks for posting.
we haven't seen one here with this flywheel design ! Does the tag say St Lawrence on it ? possible you have a photo shot of the rear-- interested in what the water pump looks like ?
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jb_castagnos
Senior Member
Username: jb_castagnos

Post Number: 421
Registered: 07-2002


Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Looks like a Victor flywheel with the teardrops.
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bgoss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 69
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm.
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Owen Bosma
Visitor
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The tag does say St.Lawrence on it, The water pump is missing.
.... OwenSt.Lawrance Brass Tag
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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 898
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 07:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thats like the one I had except mine had a rectangular tag and side cover. It was also electric start and had an aluminum piston
It also had a cover on the bottom of the crankcase held on with 4 bolts. I distinctly remember that as I pushed on the bottom of the rod with it in a press to get it unstuck
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 1928
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 08:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Going to need some input on this engine as to where to place it in the St Lawrence Engine list,the above engine has a round no serial numbered tag which so far places in the pre WWI group "BUT" it also has the round shaped one piece ex/intake manifold, so far putting it in with the engines mfgd right after the war with 4 digit serial numbers begining with 5 ???

Comments Please.

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ernie
Senior Member
Username: ernie

Post Number: 899
Registered: 01-2002


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard,
The best thing to do is to create a catagory for engines that are unknown. That way you don't rewrite history. I would think this one is a combination of parts as often happened to many of these old critters.
The flywheels are kind of spindly and do break easily so it's quite reasonable to think the flywheel has been replaced.
When I got my late engine from JB it had a welded flywheel on it. That flywheel had no balancing drillings in the back of the counter weight in the center of the flywneel. The flywheel I got from Tugboat George has deep balancing holes in the back of the flywheel counterweight. George was told that the engines with aluminum pistons had these holes. So that being the case mine had the wrong flywheel on it when I got it.
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bgoss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 70
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard, please note that the tag posted by Owen above is not the one off the blue & red Quinte engine (don't add that photo to your records). It is likely very similar, but that's not it.
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alcleary
Member
Username: alcleary

Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, February 20, 2009 - 02:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Richard:
Your post on Nov. 8, 2008 shows a single cylinder with the serial number 2292. Suggestions are that the numbers from 1850 to 5000 weren't used. Is this number a misprint? I also noticed that it doesn't appear in your serial number lists. Just trying to arrange my own list to detect any patterns.
Al Cleary
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2033
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 08:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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# 2292 was on the first list made from old notes, investigating the out of place number it was really # 5292 and is listed on later lists !

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dave james
Visitor
Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gents....
Is this site still operational as I have
a St Lawrence engine and trans ser# 5210
and could use some help on my resto.....
thanks Dave
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bruce corley
Visitor
Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2012 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a St Lawrence Engine Co Limited of Brockville flat head ford motor. The brass plate number is 8053M and the engine is stamped in a cicle B 124. I had it restored years ago at Duke Marine in Port Carling. Is anyone interested in this type of engine and does anyone know the year of manufacture?
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richarddurgee
Senior Member
Username: richarddurgee

Post Number: 2880
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Saturday, August 04, 2012 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

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Bruce, Your St Lawrence 8053M has been entered into the List of known St Lawrence Engines.
It is the only Flathead to surface so far, a rare find !Possibe to post photos and a readable
photo of the tag ? if problems posting here, click on my name at left and Email to me i'll record and post here !

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bgoss
Senior Member
Username: bgoss

Post Number: 178
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, August 07, 2012 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP Print Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce - Is the brass tag the only indication that the engine is St.Lawrence? Are there cast, raised letters on the manifold or elsewhere? I'd enjoy seeing some photos of the engine.

Does it look like this catalogue photo? I believe that these appeared in the mid-1930s.
.
s2
.
Blair

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